The benefits of avoiding bronze working

The deity isolated map is a smart choice to challenge others, I don't think anyone is confident to claim to be able to win it with military victory, however, it's not great to be convincing. How about an OCC map?

What I see is that OP put serious thinking on this article and present an unpopular strategy, which might has limited usage, but could be viable in some special maps. Honestly, there's no difference from the strategies for HOF games, which are mostly useless in most natural maps, but they are efficient in special environment. This is just a game, everyone has their own way to enjoy the game, please allow free religions.

Duckweed said:

The deity isolated map is a smart choice to challenge others, I don't think anyone is confident to claim to be able to win it with military victory, however, it's not great to be convincing. How about an OCC map?

What I see is that OP put serious thinking on this article and present an unpopular strategy, which might has limited usage, but could be viable in some special maps. Honestly, there's no difference from the strategies for HOF games, which are mostly useless in most natural maps, but they are efficient in special environment. This is just a game, everyone has their own way to enjoy the game, please allow free religions.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your thoughts. I know you are a respected player around these parts. Bronze Working is a loaded tech, since both slavery and chopping are unlocked by it. I have been thinking a lot about happy cap options lately (i.e. since writing the article) and am viewing slavery these days as merely one crude way of dealing with it. I know you are of the opinion that "How to use...slavery efficiently" is one of the "fundamental CIV skills," especially in the first hundred turns. I'll keep that in mind as I continue to think about non-Slavery ways of dealing with it. I'm not on some anti-slavery in a computer game trip, just prefer to give some thought to the road less traveled.

About OCC. I've never played it. But I can imagine with one city you: 1) would likely have less forests to chop; and 2) would be more interested in growing your city than slaving away your citizens. So I would guess there's some synergy there.

yeah in OCC you almost never whip, but you obviously need chops if you have trees and getting at least some strategic resource is very important since you ...well have only 1 city .

What you have to have in mind is though that OCC games are so special that people won't play OCC map unless it's a bit loaded with resources. which could be good otoh since less trees for chops then.

I played couple of OCC games....well actually most played OCC game was the G-Minor OCC Space Race Settler competition where I tried like 6-7 tries to get better....

I think it was very interesting that in that competition it proved to be very viable to aim for early Enviromentalism and not chopping trees at all if I remember right (it's like at least half year ago), but I think part of the success of such strategy was that Settler makes your techs really cheap and you run through those very very quickly and can do some crazy Oracle and Liberalism beelines (I think Lib->Bio for NP was one of the successful ones).

on higher levels the strategy would obviously change.

But now that Duckweed mentioned it... well interesting thought ;-)

This man was a genius.

^
I'm pretty sure you haven't read the stuff.

I used to beeline Bronze Working as my first tech, but now I am more careful with that decision. I do agree that Bronze Working is a little overrated. In fact, I weigh all the Ancient Era techs about the same, and I've learned to prioritize based on my immediate needs.

I've also learned to suck it up and tech Archery if necessary cuz I don't want to be raped by barbarians at turn 50. Going for axes or horses can sidetrack you quite a bit cuz you also need to research Wheel so you can hook up the resources. Then you waste hammers building 2-3 warriors to defend yourself from one archer.

Chopping and whipping is nice, but so is an extra 10 turns to build the GLH or Oracle. And on high difficulties where maintenance really hurts, I need all the population and happiness to keep my economy going.

Raphs_Sai said:

Chopping and whipping is nice, but so is an extra 10 turns to build the GLH or Oracle. And on high difficulties where maintenance really hurts, I need all the population and happiness to keep my economy going.

Click to expand...

Well, you don't normally get the GLH or Oracle without chopping or whipping into them on the highest levels...

UnforcedError said:

Well, you don't normally get the GLH or Oracle without chopping or whipping into them on the highest levels...

Click to expand...

On Immortal, I started the GLH on turn 53 (1880BC) and completed it on turn 72 (1120BC). The Oracle wasn't even complete yet.

Though I was Industrious (Roosevelt), but I'm pretty confident I could've still beaten everyone to the punch.

Raphs_Sai said:

On Immortal, I started the GLH on turn 53 (1880BC) and completed it on turn 72 (1120BC). The Oracle wasn't even complete yet.

Though I was Industrious (Roosevelt), but I'm pretty confident I could've still beaten everyone to the punch.

Click to expand...

I've seen both the GLH and the Oracle go before 2000 BC on IMM but that's not the point. Also, Roosevelt is undoubtedly the best GLH builder in the game (being IND and ORG). The question is: how many cities did you have at 1120 BC without whipping / chopping and slow-building a wonder? How many units and workers did you have?
These questions are related to the fact that coastal starts are (not always but in general) quite food-rich but hammer poor.

UnforcedError said:

I've seen both the GLH and the Oracle go before 2000 BC on IMM but that's not the point. Also, Roosevelt is undoubtedly the best GLH builder in the game (being IND and ORG). The question is: how many cities did you have at 1120 BC without whipping / chopping and slow-building a wonder? How many units and workers did you have?
These questions are related to the fact that coastal starts are (not always but in general) quite food-rich but hammer poor.

Click to expand...

How does the Organized trait help the Roosevelt AI build The Great Lighthouse faster?

With a food rich start, one can simply grow to happiness cap and spam Settlers and Workers as needed without Slavery.

However, avoiding bronze working is more suitable for very low food starts with virtually no forests. Thus there is no excess food to whip away and no forests to chop. Therefore, no reason to prioritize bronze working. This is all explained in the first few posts of the pro argument, which happens to be in general correct for such starts. There are a few ancillary conclusions that aren't necessarily supported by the data, such as the Great Engineer bulb is possibly marginal in value for such starts. However, I haven't really analyzed this conclusion in any detail, so I might easily be wrong about the GE bulbing path.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu said:

How does the Organized trait help the Roosevelt AI build The Great Lighthouse faster?

Click to expand...

Half priced LH.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

With a food rich start, one can simply grow to happiness cap and spam Settlers and Workers as needed without Slavery.

Click to expand...

Sure, but that's generally less effective than whipping settlers w / o a granary. Besides, how do you intend to build your other units / buildings / wonders?

UnforcedError said:

Half priced LH.

Sure, but that's generally less effective than whipping settlers w / o a granary. Besides, how do you intend to build your other units / buildings / wonders?

Click to expand...

Roosevelt starting with Fishing would be more important than +100% production of Lighthouse. However, neither one helps build The Great Lighthouse any faster; only the Industrious trait can help with that task (directly).

I certainly do not advocate avoiding bronze working for starts with high food and low hammers. Those are actually starts that need Slavery the most. I was just pointing out that such starts can spam Settlers and Workers quite quickly without using slavery once they grow to happiness cap. Maturing cottages as quickly as possible might be a justifiable reason to avoid slavery, even when it is the most effective way to produce hammers.

There are several victory conditions where building a lot of units, buildings and wonders aren't necessarily required. These include Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory, The United Nations Diplomatic Victory, and Cultural Victory based on Cottages and Great Artists.

Again, starts with low food and few forests are the ones that may best utilize the avoid bronze working strategy which is the whole point of this article. Most players would prefer to avoid such starts and even deny that they exist to "kill this strategy" and yet it continues to have viability, since at least some map scripts do generate such impoveraged starts with more than just a few percent rate (perhaps 10% or more).

Thus, early bronze working isn't always the best strategy, though it is for up to 90% of the starts generated by a few select map scripts with specific settings like arid for example. The map scripts where the "avoid bronze working" strategy works best have not been fully characterized. This is especially so, since the game will add forests to starts that are low in resources as compensation for that fact.

Sun Tzu Wu

@STW: I wasn't intending to revoke a . However, I sort of feel guilty for this thread given that one of my posts in this topic definitely served as inspiration for B.Q's anti-BW campaign. Had I known that encouraging him to write an article about a niche strategy would lead to the headline 'The benefits of avoiding Bronze Working'... Since then I feel responsible for the odd civ4 newcomer who drops by and gets deceived into believing he should actually adopt this as a general way of playing the game.

@Ralphs Sai: would you mind posting the game? And the starting save if you still have it?

Though, delaying BW for bulb opportunities may be bit excessive in most situations. Sometimes you just want to know where the metal is so you know where to put cities.

I actually did tech Mining and BW after Masonry, cuz I had a nearby barb city to raid, and of course, I wanted to know where the metal was. Though after I finished teching BW, I was like 5 turns away from completing the GL, so a chop wouldn't have mattered. I teched Mysticism -> Masonry first cuz I had to prioritize building a Monument for my 3rd city.

But to answer your question, I just started my 4th city, 6 archers, 1 warrior, and 1 worker.

I've posted the starting save if you want to try it. It's Custom_Continents with 3 continents and 6 rivals. Perhaps you want to build the GLH faster?

I see nothing wrong with how Brennus.Quigley presented this article and supported it, though I believe his estimate of 30% map applicability is a bit too high. Rather than accept such subjective estimates, I'd prefer to objectively define it using BUFFY MapFinder Rule set and note the actual percentage of maps that meet the requirements of the rule set.

This would not include starts with many forests that the player may want to preserve in a future national park inside the (original) capital. Adding these may be part of how Brennus.Quigley defines his 30% of all maps. As I mentioned before, the map script used will likely have a great effect.

I really don't believe that novice players are going to use this article as a general recipe for winning all high difficulty level games regardless of the map particulars. No one has said this strategy will work for more than 30% of all starts.

Sun Tzu Wu

The issue is whether it works for any starts at all. There is a difference between a viable approach and an optimal approach. BQ hasn't demonstrated that this is ever optimal under any circumstances.

Abegweit said:

The issue is whether it works for any starts at all. There is a difference between a viable approach and an optimal approach. BQ hasn't demonstrated that this is ever optimal under any circumstances.

Click to expand...

Brennus.Quigley doesn't need to prove the strategy works, much less that its the optimal strategy. Anyone can demonstrate that the strategy works, even you if you set your mind to it. As to whether it is optimal; that is a very lofty goal. Its not likely to be optimal for Conquest or Domination Victories on any map; one may have to accept for certain very food poor and forest poor starts that such warmongering victories may not be an option at Deity level. The likely victory conditions this strategy has synergy with are Cultural Victory, Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory, and The United Nations Diplomatic Victory. Allowing Permanent Alliances, all victory conditions are possible for this strategy. For perhaps 10% of the lowest food and lowest forest starts, it may well be optimal too.

Sun Tzu Wu

I don't think anyone disputes the idea that the strategy works. I can put any crazy constraint on my play that I might choose and this is far from the craziest. The key question is whether it is the best (e.g. optimal) approach for some class of maps. BQ has not proven this and you haven't either.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

I see nothing wrong with how Brennus.Quigley presented this article and supported it,...[deleted text]

....I really don't believe that novice players are going to use this article as a general recipe for winning all high difficulty level games regardless of the map particulars. No one has said this strategy will work for more than 30% of all starts.

Sun Tzu Wu

Click to expand...

When I first found CFC and started reading the Strategy Articles I *did* think they were chosen to be put into the Strategy Articles section from the General Discussion section because of the merit of their argument; just as I still believe CFC Admins. choose what goes into the War Academy.

So, yes, there is a chance new CFC members will think all Strategy Articles have merit. The quality and *civility* of the replies below the article help distinguish the merit of the article itself. However, novice CFC members are not likely to be playing (well) on high difficulty levels so....;-)

UnforcedError said:

@STW: I wasn't intending to revoke a . However, I sort of feel guilty for this thread given that one of my posts in this topic definitely served as inspiration for B.Q's anti-BW campaign. Had I known that encouraging him to write an article about a niche strategy would lead to the headline 'The benefits of avoiding Bronze Working'... Since then I feel responsible for the odd civ4 newcomer who drops by and gets deceived into believing he should actually adopt this as a general way of playing the game.

@Ralphs Sai: would you mind posting the game? And the starting save if you still have it?

Click to expand...

There is that slight chance. However, expecting the odd (or normal, lol) civ4 newcomer to immediately (and only) learn what works on Immortal or Deity can be even more discouraging than attempting a niche strategy that works on less than 30% of starts at whatever difficulty level.

BTW, I think everyone of all experience and skill should be open to...[here it comes]...thinking outsde the box. You were right to encourage BQ because, whether one agrees or not, exploring other possibilities can make for interesting threads as long as everyone remembers it's just a game; not religion or politics, lol.