Steam - love or hate?

rbj2001 · Oct 6, 2010

Lokit said:
And if they didn't use Steam, which probably is the best form of DRM there is since it actually gives you benefits with a community, easy access to games etc, they'd use some other form of DRM. It wouldn't be a Stardock esque DRM free title.

Allow people to download Steam themselves for the community / easy access to games, if that's what they want, but don't confuse it with DRM.

As the examples in the last couple of pages of this thread show, Steam DRM is far too restrictive. It's nonsense when two people in the same household can't both play the game and have their own high scores / achievements. The way this is going, they'll be calling us "pirates" if you have two people sitting together at a desk playing the game... or for looking over the shoulder of someone who's playing it. :rolleyes:

Obviously this is hyperbole but there have to be limits to how restrictive you are.

I don't buy that many PC games but the system they had for Crysis Warhead seemed pretty good. You had a code which you had to register via the internet, which allowed you up to 5 installations. You could un-register an installation at any time. Problem solved. Not intrusive at all. I'm no expert on DRM but this seemed a lot better from a user standpoint.

rbj2001 · Oct 6, 2010

duxup said:
Everyone makes mistakes, including folks posting on a forum overstating another person's statement to make for an easy target rather than actually discussing the topic

Who overstated whose statement? His argument was that since the developers decided to do something it must be good for business, which is obviously an incorrect conclusion to anyone with half a brain. :crazyeye:

duxup · Oct 6, 2010

rbj2001 said:
Who overstated whose statement? His argument was that since the developers decided to do something it must be good for business, which is obviously an incorrect conclusion to anyone with half a brain.

Actually he didn't say that. Taking the time to inquire and maybe consider his point seems beyond you or your intent. You exaggerate his point it so that you can nit pick it his statements and argue if a developer(s) could make a mistake... obviously his point was not that they couldn't make a mistake.

spoooq · Oct 6, 2010

rbj2001 said:
But how many games actually force you to use Steam to play them? AFAIK this is uncharted territory, and this is the difference between Civ 5 and Half-Life.

You may have heard of a little game called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2?

rbj2001 said:
Civ 5 seems a particularly bad game to run this experiment on, since I would suggest that the audience consists of a higher proportion of strategy game veterans who have been happliy buying their games from a shop since the days of floppy disks, than 18-year-old "1337 pwnars" who cannot imagine anything other than instant gratification from the internet.

Civ is not a magical fairy unicorn that somehow resists trends affecting every other part of the game industry.

Maniacal · Oct 6, 2010

rbj2001 said:
But how many games actually force you to use Steam to play them? AFAIK this is uncharted territory, and this is the difference between Civ 5 and Half-Life.

Besides VALVe's own games (22 according to Steam), Modern Warfare 2 (which is insanely popular, combined PC, PS3 and XBOX 360 sales exceeded 20,000,000 months ago), Civ5, Empire: Total War, Napoleon: Total War, (and afaik) upcoming Shogun: Total War, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, FEAR 2, Saints Row 2, and a nubmer of other games. That list is likely to grow, especially now that more major games are being Steamworked.

Civ 5 seems a particularly bad game to run this experiment on, since I would suggest that the audience consists of a higher proportion of strategy game veterans who have been happliy buying their games from a shop since the days of floppy disks, than 18-year-old "1337 pwnars" who cannot imagine anything other than instant gratification from the internet.

Thank you for completely generalizing and stereotyping not only the young people but also the long-time gamers.

rbj2001 said:
I don't buy that many PC games but the system they had for Crysis Warhead seemed pretty good. You had a code which you had to register via the internet, which allowed you up to 5 installations. You could un-register an installation at any time. Problem solved. Not intrusive at all. I'm no expert on DRM but this seemed a lot better from a user standpoint.

I'm sorry ,but how is that better than Steam? Steam allows you to install it as many times as possible (unless the developer insists, for some ******ed reason, on bundling other DRM with their game on Steam). Restricted installations has caused a lot of problems, if your hard drive fails you don't get the install back, sometimes when uninstalling you don't get the install back, and when you un out you have to go through their customer service department. Indeed, Mass Effect no longer has limited installs because of these problems and people's negative reactions towards the install limits.

ou1975 · Oct 6, 2010

No big deal here I've had steam for years.

Kerosene31 · Oct 6, 2010

rbj2001 said:
But how many games actually force you to use Steam to play them? AFAIK this is uncharted territory, and this is the difference between Civ 5 and Half-Life.

Have you purchased a PC game in recent years? Things have changed a ton since Civ 4.

Games having some sort of DRM/online registration or other really intrusive anti-piracy software is the norm, not the other way around.

Steam is the best option out of all of them. Other companies have tried all sorts of evil hidden software packages that do all sorts of awful things to your PC such as adding unnecessary services and even fake devices that mess with your DVD drive (these are the things that actually mess with your PC).

Chances are you have some of this crap on your PC if you have installed newer games. They hide it and people don't know any better. Steam is open about what it is and what it does and most people have no problem with it.

evrett37 · Oct 6, 2010

For those with legally purchased copies there are easy to install mods out there that neuter Steam so you never have to deal with it or register your copy

Moderator Action: Piracy is not tolerated on these forums.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Andoo · Oct 6, 2010

Steam is a welcome addition to civ frenchize for me since valve is one of the few companies that I still trust. It's a heaven compared to all those EA drms that seem to be a trend for new games these days.

rbj2001 · Oct 6, 2010

spoooq said:
You may have heard of a little game called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2?

I have heard of it but haven't played it. I played Modern Warfare on the Xbox360 and enjoyed that.

I've looked up user reactions to Modern Warfare 2 on Amazon.co.uk. From 382 reviews, 161 give the game 1*. Principal compaint?

:confused:

Yes, no prizes for guessing: people hate Steam!

A typical review:

1.0 out of 5 stars Brilliant but ruined by Steam, 2 May 2010
By Mr. P. S. Rogers - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
Fun:5.0 out of 5 stars
This review is from: Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (PC DVD) (DVD-ROM)

* I only play the single player game off-line and this review deals only with that not multi-player*

It should of course be 5*s all the way, 10*s if you could give them; the single player game is quite brilliant with amazing graphics, well balanced game play and mostly the Ai's seem to have a little bit of brain.

So why has this game so many negative reviews? Simple - STEAM

Steam is appalling and crass, a great idea some might think for those who want to buy and store their games on-line - but why should anyone be enforced to run a game bought from a retailer via the steam site?

I have two steam games, this and Aliens vs Predator; by pure fluke COD2 plays, A vs P effectively doesn't. Steam ignore you and any questions it seems, I have had no reply from them at all - plus did you know you have to sign up for a seperate account for support!! WHAT?

Why have I given this even a 1* rating? Because a 0* rating is not available and this purely beacuse of Steam, not the game in itself - but you cannot ignore steam as they have made it intregal to the game; no steam, no play. A quite brillant game totally ruined by Steam.

For comparison, the Xbox version has 24 out of 451 reviews giving it 1*.

DaviddesJ · Oct 6, 2010

rbj2001 said:
I've looked up user reactions to Modern Warfare 2 on Amazon.co.uk. From 382 reviews, 161 give the game 1*.

When the White House ran an online survey to ask people what questions Barack Obama should answer about the economy, the leading question was, "Should we legalize and tax marijuana to help the federal budget?"

I'll go out on a limb and say that this was not actually the leading economic question on the minds of the American public. Rather, it reflects the ability of small but dedicated groups to mobilize their members. Same for the "ballot stuffing" on Amazon that you describe above. These people didn't independently get the idea to post those ratings. It's part of a concerted campaign. It's not reflective of the public at large.

Referring to this campaign as if it were reflective of public opinion illustrates the problem with some of the contributions to this thread---they are based on an existing antipathy toward Steam and don't have much to do with Civ V at all.

spoooq · Oct 6, 2010

rbj2001 said:
I've looked up user reactions to Modern Warfare 2 on Amazon.co.uk. From 382 reviews, 161 give the game 1*. Principal compaint?

Yes, no prizes for guessing: people hate Steam!

Yeah, it really brutalized their sales... I mean it was only the biggest entertainment release of all time and has made over $1 billion in sales. I bet they wished they had asked your advice before they screwed up.

You want to know how meaningful the crap people spout online about games is?

I bet those 1* guys are still playing too.

Maniacal · Oct 6, 2010

rbj2001 said:
I have heard of it but haven't played it. I played Modern Warfare on the Xbox360 and enjoyed that.

I've looked up user reactions to Modern Warfare 2 on Amazon.co.uk. From 382 reviews, 161 give the game 1*. Principal compaint?

Yes, no prizes for guessing: people hate Steam!

A typical review:

For comparison, the Xbox version has 24 out of 451 reviews giving it 1*.

That guy didn't play the multiplayer? Well he didn't play 90% of the game then. He also fails to give any real problem caused by Steam (His problem with AVP probably has NOTHING to do with Steam).

I would have likely given the game 2/5 rating, because while it was fun it could easily have sucked less. The multiplayer was pretty much just console multiplayer slapped onto a PC game, and got old after a month (thankfully I didn't buy it, my roommate did).

McLMan · Oct 6, 2010

The biggest issue with MW2 players is NOT Steam. The biggest issue is it's use of IWNet and not dedicated servers. Both Left 4 Dead titles use dedicated servers integrated with Steam and it works very well. Not any complaints there about Steam at all.

All these Steam haters make me think of this idiot.

Maniacal · Oct 7, 2010

Wow that guy made a fool out of himself with that video. Massive fail. It said his video card was unsupported et he KEEPS TRYING >_<

SuperJay · Oct 8, 2010

PrinceScamp said:
If you haven't already, you are welcome to join the CFC Steam group, there are a bunch of us who play TF2 regularly and several of us are in the same clan. Feel free to add me (my nick is CnB| a Maniacal ๖ۣۜEskimo, most of the announcements for the CFC group were posted by me, just click my name and add me) and I will be happy to help you learn how to play TF2.
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/CFCforums

Hey, just saw this now - thanks for the invite, I'll probably take you up on that. I just started playing "real" TF2 servers last night and it went better than I'd hoped (in that I actually scored a few kills each round... yay me, haha). But knowing the maps and gametypes is obviously gonna take awhile, and I could definitely use the help in learning the ropes. :cool:

tom2050 · Oct 8, 2010

Senethro said:
You lost.

Are you here for the Civ5 these days or can you not let it go?

This is what happens when Senethro can't argue something with valid points... he leaves small remarks (very small) like this.

Senethro · Oct 8, 2010

edit: forget it.

Liddo · Oct 8, 2010

Bits and pieces from my blog...

I bought Civilization V, installed and activated through Steam. I bought more games and content on Steam and now my account is disabled because of credit card fraud. I cant refund my retail copy of Civilization V because its already opened (says the Steam SSA) nor is there any other way to get the game up and running except for workarounds which is totally not legal.

Valve provide appalling support. When they e-mailed me regarding the fraud, I quickly replied within 3 to 4 hours but I have yet to get another response from them and it has been two days. I am going to guess that the matter wont resolve until after the weekend, so thats at least another two days. I am now very tempted to request a refund for everything I got on my account. I dont see the point in purchasing anything which can easily be disabled at any given time for any given reason and without prior notification.

Why do they disable your entire account? I can't play all the games I purchased via Steam AND games I purchased in stores with cash.

I used my own credit card, my password is secure and my computer is also secure before anyone tries to troll.

And that is why I hate Steam.

mattcrwi · Oct 8, 2010

Liddo said:
Bits and pieces from my blog...

Why do they disable your entire account? I can't play all the games I purchased via Steam AND games I purchased in stores with cash.

I used my own credit card, my password is secure and my computer is also secure before anyone tries to troll.

And that is why I hate Steam.

Is that you? If it was I would be calling your credit card company and not Steam support....

Steam - love or hate?

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