Current (SVN) development discussion thread

Leoreth, I would like to mention that the 1st Japanese UHV condition is impossible on Normal Speed right now.
It is mostly due to your K-Mod Implementation of the Great Artist Culture Bomb.
You might want to reconsider changing it back, because I would have made it in time in my current playthrough had each Artist been worth 4000, instead of 2400.

Also, why is it 24000 Culture, and not 20000 Culture like it says?
That's also an issue.

And the Trading Company thing is bugged with TXT_KEY_ASKCOLONIAL or something like that.
It gives me a Yes or No option, but no matter what I choose, Spain always DoWs me.
 
And the Trading Company thing is bugged with TXT_KEY_ASKCOLONIAL or something like that.
It gives me a Yes or No option, but no matter what I choose, Spain always DoWs me.
I experienced that too, made me restart my Indonesia game. Get prepared beforehand, I guess.
 
I think I am done with China now.

It is no longer fun to play. I've accepted the no-rush rule and tried teching differently, but the Religion penalty is absolutely too much and I stand by that opinion. I can't muster enough troops to hold off the barb waves and it seems like I trade evenly 1:1 in a war of attrition I can't win and Construction is too far away. I am running Pantheon because it's not illogical (Taoism has a number of polytheistic elements).

...So I'm just expected to run Patriarche and twiddle my thumbs running Specialists/pumping out Spearmen till I slowly get Construction?
No thanks. That's almost like vanilla RFC China, and it's not my cup of tea.

India was just unbearable. I know the goal to found all the religions isn't there anymore, but it's still an intrinsic part of the UHV, that I feel shouldn't be punished.
Why shouldn't I found Zoroastrianism? Or Catholicism? Or Islam?

I've played Euro civs in the interim, like England and France. They're fine.
They always have been, for the most part. But a lot of what's been changed has really screwed over the feel of China & India.

EDIT: I know I've been complaining a lot lately, but I feel like one thing that made DoC more fun than vanilla RFC
was that Asian (minus Japan) civs were noticably a lot more fun and complex than in Rhye's version. Again, 1.9 is the version for improving Euros,
and I state that the goal is mostly a success, but I am displeased that it seems that early civs are getting nerfs for common sense things.
There is really nothing else to do now except spam Workers and just watch yourself stagnate if you want to play for the UHV.
I think I can still play China for Domination, but no longer for UHV, it is simply unbearable gameplay.
 
It's still fine to do Chinese UHV. Get the gold from Kunming (fort it before you have Iron Working), and Monarchy from Persia. Don't research Mathematics/Alphabet, bulb/trade for them. You can get Metal Casting (via Oracle) at turn 90+, and trade for Alphabet from Greece and Monarchy from Persia. Iron Working & Meditation from India if they are willing.
 
Persia never trades Monarchy anymore and India never trades Iron Working until it's too late and the barbs are already swarming me.

My biggest issue is still with the religion penalty. I know what it's meant to do is force me to run Patriarche and I do not like that.
Running Pantheon to get the wonders is incredibly painful, and I don't see why it should be if China is one of the dawn of man civs.
Same with India, to an extent. If there's one thing I would reverse in all of SVN, it would have to be the religion penalty.

The luck was also incredibly bad too, over half of my hut pops were barbs, and again, the barbs kept killing me over and over.
 
...Do save & loads with hut pops, you'd need some gold from huts. Persia would be willing to trade you Monarchy if you haven't traded with their worst enemy or refused their requests too many times.
 
^Some players would consider that cheating; I used to do it vanilla RFC, but not anymore in DoC.
I might as well WB myself the techs and gold.

Okay, let me break it down why I'm fixated on the unfairness of the religion penalty:

I am China. My default civic is Animism.

I found Confucianism: -1 Happy. Persistently, until I follow the next courses of action:

I switch to Pantheon and I have Confucianism: -1 Happy. I can build Wonders, but because of the barbs and since I went off tech-rails to research Polytheism, I can't raise the Great Wall in time, and my cities are forced to be small, even with Calendar resources, because I have to keep whipping all my cities to fend off the barbs. (-2 Happy with Taoism)

I switch to Patriarche and I have Confucianism: No more unhappy, but I lose out on Wonders. Now I can't raise my Economy, and am forced for the most part to build units (Warriors unless I get the Bronze online sooner because no one will trade me Iron Working), forcing me to tech slower unless I pump specialists, which forces an Economy dip.

So what I am being penalized for?

NOTHING.

No matter what I do, I am penalized in some way, and I'm forced to be if I want to take the UHV.

This is the same reason why NO ONE plays or ENJOYS playing Mali, to some extent.

Which is the big problem. I'm being penalized for simply going after UHV.
No other civ other than India and maybe Corea suffers from this.
Does no one else feel how wrong this is?
 
^Some players would consider that cheating; I used to do it vanilla RFC, but not anymore in DoC.
Indeed, but picking starts is similar in nature. I usually gather ~200 gold, which is nearly worth Fishing + Sailing, and no tech.

My usual tech path (it is by no means optimal, but works on Monarch):
AH->Writing->BW->Fishing->Sailing->Masonry->Mysticism->Polytheism->Priesthood->The Wheel->Pottery(needed to Oracle Metal Casting)
Bulb Mathematics (with the Great Scientist, in my case, from Zhongdu) right before Rome spawns. You should be finishing Oracle soon, 1 unhappy citizen is OK. Then trade for Alphabet and Monarchy with Metal Casting. Switch to Dynasticism and research Construction, and then Calendar. You should be fine with founding Taosim as long as you don't trade Mathematics to Persia. I would build the Great Wall in Luoyang and Colosseum in Zhongdu, chop the remaining forests. The coastal cities of mine all build libraries first, and when not building Wonders they should limit growth and build research, at least before you improve the calendar resources.

And I keep a 2:1 worker/city ratio.
 
I don't think I can do all of that fast enough, to be honest.
And the barbs always do enough damage to set me back really far.

By the way, I did Oracle Metal Casting on my last attempted playthrough.
Persia would not trade me Monarchy for it.
 
I usually hire an axeman mercenary to deal with the first wave of barbarian warriors.

Oh, right, just research Monarchy for 1 turn and that should do.
 
honestly, your strategy that you published for china showed how extremely op the civ was. the new rules make it so that you can't have everything, making each decision a trade off, which is in essence what this game is about. you can have all the religions, or you can have all the wonders but not both paying the price. besides, the unhappiness is negated by temples, and although you can't get early monarchy for happy, you just have to make a coordinated push for quick calendar resources.

winning a historical victory with china, by building all of greece's wonders is kinda silly, and the type of thing that Leoreth has been trying to stamp out since the mod started. Notice however, how you can still do it, but there is a price to be paid now.

The possibility exists obviously, that Leoreth has gone to far, amd some balancing may be needed, however, my experience with this mod and with Leoreth tells, me that showing concrete evidence of the need for balancing through screenshots and saved games, and offering suggestions and ways to balance these issues, will get you more then complaining and making blanket statements that can't be backed up like, its impossible to win with whoever, or evey game sone civ is too powerful. If you don't beleive me just ask The Turk.
 
honestly, your strategy that you published for china showed how extremely op the civ was. the new rules make it so that you can't have everything, making each decision a trade off, which is in essence what this game is about. you can have all the religions, or you can have all the wonders but not both paying the price. besides, the unhappiness is negated by temples, and although you can't get early monarchy for happy, you just have to make a coordinated push for quick calendar resources.

Well, consider this.

You are punished for trying to keep to one path as well.

Say I'm running Patriarche with India; and I've got Hinduism & Buddhism.
I am still incurring a -1 penalty that I am forced to take in order to achieve the UHV; which, at the minimum, seems to suggest 2 religions, and 5 cities, with each city building one temple from each. The Temple will negate the unhappiness, but before that, it will be hard to take and you still have to deal with barbs. India doesn't even get the luxury of getting the Great Wall either.

The difference is more pronounced with China, where barbarians start raiding you before you can get the Great Wall up in any reasonable amount of time.

winning a historical victory with china, by building all of greece's wonders is kinda silly, and the type of thing that Leoreth has been trying to stamp out since the mod started. Notice however, how you can still do it, but there is a price to be paid now.

The possibility exists obviously, that Leoreth has gone to far, amd some balancing may be needed, however, my experience with this mod and with Leoreth tells, me that showing concrete evidence of the need for balancing through screenshots and saved games, and offering suggestions and ways to balance these issues, will get you more then complaining and making blanket statements that can't be backed up like, its impossible to win with whoever, or evey game sone civ is too powerful. If you don't beleive me just ask The Turk.

For one, I think that the Buddhism+Hinduism and the Confucianism+Taoism+Buddhism syncreticism should be implemented effective immediately.

Again though, I have provided reasoning and pointed out how it's only these civs: China, India, Corea, who require two religions for their UHV goals, so Pantheon or not, that are punished for going along the track.

I also never said it was impossible to win with China. I know Fresol has won UHV with them even in their current incarnation. I expressed my frustration at how they currently play. It certainly does feel that way because on Normal speed, the time windows for everything are smaller and because of the set backs, it's harder to squeeze to them in on time.
 
Be patient with India, China and Korea, I want to implement an exception to the religion unhappiness rule for the Hinduism/Buddhism and Confucianism/Taoism pairs (maybe also Confucianism and Buddhism, but then it shouldn't stack with the others), but only if one of them is your state religion. So a city with Confucianism and Taoism under Animism would be 0 unhappiness, while under Pantheon it would still be 2. It sounds harsh, but Pantheon is not intended for them, so if you want to reap the benefits you'll have to pay that price. I haven't tested it yet but in conjunction with Dynasticism it should still be viable.

I'll also readjust Japan's culture requirement further. How many 4000 culture artists did you need for the UHV previously?
 
Be patient with India, China and Korea, I want to implement an exception to the religion unhappiness rule for the Hinduism/Buddhism and Confucianism/Taoism pairs (maybe also Confucianism and Buddhism, but then it shouldn't stack with the others), but only if one of them is your state religion. So a city with Confucianism and Taoism under Animism would be 0 unhappiness, while under Pantheon it would still be 2. It sounds harsh, but Pantheon is not intended for them, so if you want to reap the benefits you'll have to pay that price. I haven't tested it yet but in conjunction with Dynasticism it should still be viable.

That sounds relatively reasonable to me. I suppose I'll continue testing out Euro civs in the meantime then.

I'll also readjust Japan's culture requirement further. How many 4000 culture artists did you need for the UHV previously?

I can probably hit around 4000 Culture on my own; running the Culture slider at 50-70%, earning between 70 to 150 Culture per turn.
That + 3 Great Artists, which I got in the last playthrough under normal circumstances (4000 per culture bomb) would have sufficed to hit the 20K Culture goal.
 
Does the mod pack still include stability/UHV maps? Or we just need to look them up online?
 
Currently not, it's not worth the effort with everything constantly subject to change.

I think Linkman once made stability maps for DoC at that point, most of them should be largely accurate. Otherwise you still have the ingame stability display.
 
Latest SVN has "You have been defeated" bug :sad:
 
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