Dominating with Egypt

I've been playing lately with Ramses' potential, just experimenting on Prince before trying things at higher levels. Egypt has what seems like an odd combination of traits:
-- Advantage building wonders.
-- Burial Chambers replace temples with less tech and provide extra happiness.
-- War Chariots that don't use any horses.

I play a Tradition/Aesthetics/Freedom easy win with Culture. Then a Piety/Tradition/Rationalism/Freedom less easy win with Space. Both of those are Tall, four-city starts on Continents maps. I don't launch any wars. If attacked, I may take and immediately raze a non-capital. I didn't want the city penalties for culture or tech.

I decide to try Egypt out for Domination. The early unit has the flaw of not promoting to a ranged unit, making all those ranged attack bonuses useless later. But you can crank out as many as you can afford, because they don't require horses. I played an Honor opener, followed by Liberty. And in hindsight this seems like it was right. I'm playing on a continents map, with Greece, Ottomans and Byzantines close by and England further away. I kill lots of barbarians to fill up the Honor tree quickly and get the first 30 experience on most of my units. I have only two cities up, but it's time to fight. With two spears and three war chariots, I attack Constantinople and take it without much effort. Theo surrenders. I crank out a few more units, heal up and turn to Istanbul, which is adjacent. Unfortunately, Suleiman has an early wall up and this fight bogs down. I settle for accepting Edirne when he surrenders, which puts me in Alexander's back yard. I put a citadel in a great strategic location near two of Greece's cities and line up my chariots, then declare. I kill several waves of his units and start to bonus up my chariots nicely. I take and raze Argos. But with my economy hurting and Alex's allied city states getting into the mix, I accept a peace deal that doesn't give me anything. I then use those stronger chariots to go after Istanbul again, which I take without too much trouble. I can see some mistakes I've made and know my whole continent is in an economic and tech backwater. It's about 1250 AD and from the wonders being built elsewhere, I know we're way behind. I'd rather just start over, which I'll do shortly.

What I realize is that the War Chariots become truly lethal if they get Logistics early enough. This allows them to step in, fire twice, then back off. They can also get extra range, which just adds to this tactic. This is similar to strategies that work well with England's UUs. But that's several promotions for the chariots and the window is narrow. Against good fortifications or more advanced defending units, they're not going to be effective. So the correct strategy for War Chariot early domination has to be getting them out early in large numbers and attacking quickly. Make sure you give them the right bonuses. I'm thinking Spears seem like a natural supporting unit, though swords are OK as well. Honor and Liberty seem to make sense, but not sure about the order.

Anyone else have insights on domination efforts with Egypt?

You should check the Egypt ICL map, there's been some really potent Domination wins

Egypt is an extremely good all around civ. They are excellent at going tall and whoring wonders with their wonder bonus but also very good at going wide since they get extra happiness from their tombs.

Their early UU which is a chariot that can be spammed infinitely also makes them a very potent early war civ. They pretty much have the full bag of tricks at their disposal. If you see a person playing them in MP you really have no idea what to expect from them.

They could be a wonder whoring peaceful player or an early aggression chariot spamming player. They do everything well.

Played another attempt for more ideas. Decided to end it when the target I need to take out next got the Great Wall up. In this game, I tried a Honor opening, but went Liberty after going down the left side of Honor. Probably a mistake. Could have used the coin from each kill. I was trying to use the bottom right of the Lib tree to offset unhappiness, but bankruptcy is as bad or worse. Feel like I started at least my second war too early in both these games. Should have taken time to get my economy righted and bring a few more chariots up to the front. Gonna make another attempt shortly.

Attempt #3 at Dominating with Egypt going much much better. Went Straight Honor, then Liberty. Key was getting four good cities up first. Location of Thebes with 2 Ivory, 1 Furs and 1 Deer didn't hurt -- took Goddess of the Hunt. Just missed on GL, built library with the money. Got Zeus. Thanks to the UB, I got a religion without much effort. Took my time to build 4 War Chariots, 2 spears and 1 Scout/Compound Bow for my attack force. Also trained most of them up to 30 with an mountain-locked barb base on the coast. DOWed on Assyria around 500 AD. Took time to let him throw units at my forces and reap the Honor gold. Then took capitol without losing anyone. Most chariots and CB close to getting logistics. Economy and Happiness doing well. Next war will be with Dutch, who are a bit further away. If that goes well, probably Alex, then Liz and Shaka. Hope to complete these conquests before I meet anyone on another continent. Venice is also on my landmass with a capital near mine, but I feel like his settlement rules allow me to safely leave him for last. Anyone else facing Venice during a Domination bid have a thought on that?

So if this strategy holds true, it seems like the key to an Egypt early domination bid with a War Chariot rush is not to over-rush without an adequate economic base or a big enough army. Even though the usefulness of your UU is going to fade as defenses get stronger, you can keep spamming them for a long time. Plus if you protect your older units and use them to snipe, logistics and extra range should make them pretty effective. I've very happy with the tactic of declaring and setting up a perimeter for the AI to throw itself against. But does the AI get smarter on this point at higher levels?

Beyond the obvious bonuses for ranged units, I need to think about what will pay off the most when it does become time to promote them up to Knights and beyond, eventually to Modern Armor if the game does that long. Barrage seems obvious. And the bonus that lets you move and heal at the same time. Any other suggestions?

If possible, I destroy Venice first or leave him until last.

First if I need another usable city early on, e.g. when I have gone 2 city NC after opening honour and will eventually need another for a 3rd factory and thus an ideology. He often gets the best coastal spot on the map and lacks units for defence.

Last when I need a longer term trading partner, as he's very easy to befriend and provides lots of gold. Being coastal with a nice cap, cargo ships do well with Enrico too, especially when I have low science.

The fact that he doesn't expand conventionally also changes things, though since I love CS allies he's often super annoying in this regard and no nicer than a normal AI.

For some reason in this game, Enrico is on a big lake in the interior, with no ocean access. He's annexed a couple of CS but I don't they're coastal either. In this game he's friendly and a good trader. I notice he's the only AI that has no opinion on my early warmongering. But I should be able to caravan him from easily. I control the neck of a wide northern peninsula on this map, with coastal cities on each end and two non-coastal cities including Thebes in the middle. I've puppetted Asshur, on a north facing coast to my southwest, so far. Venice is south of me in the middle of the continent. Alex has REXed up to four cities west of Asshur and Liz is on a narrow peninsula northwest of him. The Dutch are on the SE corner of the main landmass, with Shake across a very narrow land-bridge to their southeast. Given that it's a fractal map and I haven't explored some areas, there could be one or two others out there. Shaka took someone's capital early on. But I'm assuming there's at least one more, probably smaller landmass with a few AI.

EDIT: Scratch that on Venice's location. It is the coast. Due to a mountain chain blocking my access, I couldn't see that the continent was shaped like an upside-down U, with him in the middle on the south side and me across the top of the north side.

Backstabbed by Venice just as I was about to DOW on Alex. His Knights were brutal in ambushing the War Chariots. Battled to a stalemate, went to peace and then right back to war. I took Venice early on in the second war. Around that time Alex and Liz backstabbed me at once. Once we got past the initial ambush with Knights, they keep throwing everything at Asshur. But they have to cross a narrow bit of land to get there and my ranged units, plus a few pikes and Muskets, are waiting on the other side. My economy was awful for a few turns, but it's turned around. I'm happy with the way these three simultaneous wars are going for now, but I'd like to get a treaty with someone. None of them will consider it. That seems strange. It's been a one-sided fight against Venice for more than a century, and closing in on a century against the other two. Is my high warmonger penalty why the won't consider ending the fight?

Follow up with an update and a more detailed look at that war history. I don't have precise turn numbers for the first two wars, so those are a guess:

125 Ramesses DOWs Assyria
131 Asshur captured, Assyria eliminated.
140 Ramesses DOW William
210 Amsterdam captured after long siege. William surrenders, gives up 1 of 2 remaining cities.
219 Enrico DOW Ramesses.
225 Enrico and Ramesses treaty without any cities changing hands.
230 Ramesses DOW on William as part of deal with Shaka.
243 Ramesses DOW on Enrico after spy warns of build-up.
245 William and Ramesses treaty without any cities changing hands.
248 Alex DOWs Ramesses
249 Liz DOWs Ramesses
255 Venice captured. Two puppet cities remaining.
271 Alex accepts treaty with Ramesses, gives up a city.
272 Liz accepts treaty with Ramesses, gives up a city.
279 Enrico accepts treaty with Ramesses, gives up nothing.

So that last Enrico war took 36 turns, with about 24 after losing his capital. Does that seem long to anyone else?

The pressing question now is how to proceed. I've only got two surviving war chariots, though they both have logistics and extra range, plus a host of other bonuses. I also have a scout/crossbow with logistics and range. I lucked out in having Alex and Liz throw everything at the one city where these units had set up a defense in the surrounding hills. But that's not going to win any offensive wars against two wide civs, who are clearly the next ones I need to take out if I continue the domination plan. Liz was also turning out a few longbows, who could the tables on me quickly. Officially, my military is No. 2 in the world, but I'm way behind Shaka. I'm in the industrial techs and officially No. 3 in tech behind Shaka(!) and Enrico, neither of whom are much ahead. It seems like this is a good time to go peaceful for a while and finish off this map when I've teched up enough. I can promote my War Chariots to Knights and Cavalry, eventually to armored units. They'll lose range, but should be more formidable at discouraging any DOW from the AI. I have a lot of choices to make and would welcome advice:
-- I went full Honor early and just finished Liberty. Thinking of either Rationalism or Patronage next. Recommendations welcome. Figure Autocracy if the game goes long enough.
-- I built 5 cities and own 6 puppets including 3 former capitals. I'm number one in land and population. Am I smarter to fill with additional cities now or go tall with what I've got? How about annexing and building courthouses? Or am I better to leave those cities as puppets?
-- With this fractal map, we've only got two major landmasses that I know of and I haven't fully explored the one where Shaka is. (Contrary to my earlier perception, he's on a separate mass, but there was no ocean in between.) Thinking I need to invest in Frigates and/or privateers to see this better. They may play a big role in later campaigns. Make sense?
-- I haven't done much with the Walls or Barracks series of buildings. Seems smart to invest there. Make sense?
-- I need to build more muskets to promote up. Short on this type of unit. I only built one sword ever. Makes sense?

EDIT: A note about having only 2 War Chariots left. A previous comment on this thread observed that you could spam these forever. With no horses required, that's mostly true. There's one caveat -- so long as you don't have Chivalry. This makes them obsolete. They're also extremely vulnerable to Knight attacks and it takes a swarm of them to harm Knights. That's why I've been using mostly Pikes for melee support.

I'll try to answer your points, but it'd be much easier to assess your game if you posted screenshots; a picture tells a thousand words and all that Also, what game speed? From your timeline I'm guessing a epic/marathon.

- If I go full honour I never consider liberty, but maybe that's just me. After honour I feel that full commerce is best for Dom, though a mix of patronage into rationalism can be necessary if you're a bit behind or want an emergency SV option. I personally don't see the point of going Liberty unless it's early game, as it's benefits dwindle with time.

- Why are over half of your cities puppets? For a longer game it's worth annexing them and pumping out some courthouses; your tile and building choices are always more informed than the AI's.

- For scouting I always have a Caravel or 2 to cover the oceans. They're available sooner than Navigation units, the extra sight makes them more efficient scouts and they serve just as well as privateers as capture units.

- If I've bothered to fill out honour I always invest in all possible military xp buildings in any city which will be producing units; they're cheaper to build and the synergy with honour is clear. Honour soon loses it's appeal if I'm not constantly warring.

- For your early rush with War Chariots 1 or 2 melee units will suffice. If you're planning to go for a Dom victory (filling out honour, you should try to), more Warriors/Swordsmen early will be worth it later, as highly-promoted Muskets/Rifles etc. are the best damage soakers.

Bimblecrumbs said:

I'll try to answer your points, but it'd be much easier to assess your game if you posted screenshots; a picture tells a thousand words and all that Also, what game speed? From your timeline I'm guessing a epic/marathon.

- If I go full honour I never consider liberty, but maybe that's just me. After honour I feel that full commerce is best for Dom, though a mix of patronage into rationalism can be necessary if you're a bit behind or want an emergency SV option. I personally don't see the point of going Liberty unless it's early game, as it's benefits dwindle with time.

- Why are over half of your cities puppets? For a longer game it's worth annexing them and pumping out some courthouses; your tile and building choices are always more informed than the AI's.

- For scouting I always have a Caravel or 2 to cover the oceans. They're available sooner than Navigation units, the extra sight makes them more efficient scouts and they serve just as well as privateers as capture units.

- If I've bothered to fill out honour I always invest in all possible military xp buildings in any city which will be producing units; they're cheaper to build and the synergy with honour is clear. Honour soon loses it's appeal if I'm not constantly warring.

- For your early rush with War Chariots 1 or 2 melee units will suffice. If you're planning to go for a Dom victory (filling out honour, you should try to), more Warriors/Swordsmen early will be worth it later, as highly-promoted Muskets/Rifles etc. are the best damage soakers.

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I'll try to get some screenshots up. A few notes of explanation.
-- Speed is Standard. Standard map. Fractal continents. Prince level.
-- I finished the Honor tree super-quick and Commerce wasn't yet an option. I went Liberty to get the less unhappiness for the 4 cities I built and the extra culture for each of them. Not sure it was the best choice. With Egypt, Piety might have made sense. Leaning toward going Rationalism next, but the reason Patronage comes into play is that Venice is killing me with his many CS allies. I'm thinking that's going to fade now that he's lost his capital, but I'm not sure.
-- I have OK cash flow now, but I had severe money problems for most of the last 100 turns. No one wanted to trade, lost caravans to war, etc. Planning to convert them gradually as soon as I can afford to buy courthouses. I agree about the tile and building choices, but I was also thinking about getting more of my national wonders up first. So far just Circus Maximum and National College. I'd like to at least get Oxford before I make that hill any higher to climb.
-- Navy: I almost always agree with building just a couple of Caravels until late in the game unless I'm playing England. But in this game I had a sudden tech surge with GS bulbing and spying so that I got these fairly close together. Never got around to building a Caravel. My money was so bad that both my coastal cities were building only Wealth for a while there. At this point, I'm thinking Frigates and Privateers because my opponents have so many coastal cities. Privateers are a little better that Caravels at capturing cities and rival ships. While I'm on the subject, I have no cargo fleet, which is the opposite of my usual play style. But with so many CS's at war with me until recently, it didn't make sense.
-- Agree on Swords early, although Pikes are pretty nice against Knights. I didn't have iron access early enough and a city state kept gifting me spears. So I went with what I had.

For domination with Egypt I would open tradition for border growth then go straight liberty and spam out chariots ASAP after a monument, granary and worker. Kill your first target very early with chariot spam. Possibly even a 2nd. After that it is xbow spam all day. You will likely not need anything after xbows and knights if you're going straight up domination.

Assuming you are on a land based map.

CraigMak said:

For domination with Egypt I would open tradition for border growth then go straight liberty and spam out chariots ASAP after a monument, granary and worker. Kill your first target very early with chariot spam. Possibly even a 2nd. After that it is xbow spam all day. You will likely not need anything after xbows and knights if you're going straight up domination.

Assuming you are on a land based map.

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I may try that. Just started a new attempt using Honor then Liberty that's going well for now, but I see the edge with border growth by going Tradition Opener. Are you saying to stop making chariots and switch to crossbows after knocking out the first couple of targets quickly? Interesting. Not sure what you meant about land-based. I've been playing either Fractal maps or Continents in most of my games. Do you consider those land-based enough?

EditorRex said:

I may try that. Just started a new attempt using Honor then Liberty that's going well for now, but I see the edge with border growth by going Tradition Opener. Are you saying to stop making chariots and switch to crossbows after knocking out the first couple of targets quickly? Interesting. Not sure what you meant about land-based. I've been playing either Fractal maps or Continents in most of my games. Do you consider those land-based enough?

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Well, I would tech xbows as quickly as possible. Once you have xbows, chariots are obsolete since xbows are superior. I would only make chariots in cities with really poor hammers that would take forever to make an xbow.

Crossbows are the best unit in the game for a very long time so I would just spam them all day if you're going domination.

I said assuming it's a land based map because I didn't mention boats and if you can't get to a civ then you will fall behind pretty badly since you're all in war.