How balanced is Civ V compared to Civ IV ?

Magean

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So, now that Civ V is unlikely to get any substantial patch/expansion and has probably come to the end of its development cycle, I was wondering how balanced it is as compared to Civ IV.

I've played Civ IV a lot, but honestly, I sucked at this game. I played for fun or role-play, not really to win, and couldn't even beat Noble difficulty. So I don't know which civilizations, leaders, technologies, government civics... were OP or UP.

In Civ V, I think I'm comparatively a much better player. And, obviously, there are many things that are still unbalanced. Some policies and policy trees are almost no-brainers (rationalism...) for most strategies, others (honor...) are only good in specific situations, for unconventional playstyles, but still sub-obtimal. Same for civilizations. Science-kings like Babylon or Korea are extremely efficient, whatever you do. Others have more situational abilities. In Deity level, Byzantium isn't even sure to found a religion, and it might very well end up with a garbage bonus belief if everything else has been taken. The list can go on for many choices the game offers.


That's why, I'd like to know the opinion of rusty Civ veterans who knew Civ IV better than I... How balanced and "refined" is Civ V, in overall, when compared with its predecessor ?
 
I played IV until GnK shipped, so I think I am qualified to answer. I did not buy GnK until the first balance patch.

IMHO V is very much better balanced than IV (or III for that matter). I kind of regret waiting so long to get it, but I was an early adopter of both III and IV, were both so disappointing upon launch, that I had learned my lesson. Prolly I will get BE right out of the gate.

With both III and IV, I found one level way too easy, but the next level up way too hard. I would have been bitterly disappointed if it were not for the GoTM archives with the 3 versions available. Civfanatics kept me as a Faraxis customer!

On the other hand, V is “less balanced” in that their is more noticeable differences between the civs. With IV, I played all the civs pretty much the same. With V, I find myself going out of the way with the tech tree to unlock UA, UB, UU, and then try to heavily use those. This kind of variability is a good thing!
 
I can ensure you, Civ V was quite disappointing on release. It had a huge potential but felt somehow bland. Subsequent patches made it noticeably better, and G&K really revealed the true potential of the game. So, you didn't miss much.

And that's true, Civ's UA make them much more different, which is a good thing. Even though some UA are noticeably better in most situations, and more flexible, than others. I'd still say that UA were among the strong points of V compared to IV even at release.
 
CIV5 with BNW is quite good in regards of balance.

There are a few quirks I dislike, like bombers being somewhat OP considering their location within the tech tree or ranged units in general being a bit too powerful for my taste. Some UA/UU/UB/UI combinations are also a bit "meh" (for example I really dislike India's, Byzantium's or Denmark's complete package). And there are social policies that are pretty bad.

Apart from that, though, the overall balance of the game mechanics feels quite good. One thing that I really like in CIV5 is the balance of wide vs. tall empires. The fact that early game ICC is gone and you actually have some sort of choise about your initial empire size is great (although tall might be favored by the current BNW Status Quo).

Overall I'd say that CIV5 offers better balance gameplay wise compared to CIV4 and rather similiar balance in regards of units/techs/civs/etc.
 
IMO despite ciV being a better game overall but cIV gets an edge mainly in two things, balance & modding.
One of the reason for better balance is that cIV has very linear & unflavourful civs unlike ciV which has unique abilities (which results in some OP combos such as Keshiks+Khans). Other reasons include bad balance between SPs in ciV such as Tradition/Liberty, Tall Empires overly beneficial, warmongering broken diplomacy wise, OP ranged attacks & so on.

Edit : I have played unmodded ciV much MORE than unmodded cIV so I may not know about the exploits in cIV as much as I know about ciV.
 
I don't really think V is greatly balanced. Some stuff are widely considered bad since years and people never use them (or barely) for competitive play. That's one of the reason I'm currently working on my own mod which could be somewhat of an "unofficial balance patch".

Can't really compare with IV though since I didn't play it as much.
 
i thought C4 was substantially harder. stack mechanics were more than i felt like thinking about but that's just me. i felt the AI was more capable of mounting a sudden facesmashing invasion as well. the C4 music was a whooooole lot better. yet despite all this, i'm enjoying C5 more. go figure
 
The game being harder isn't the same as being more balanced :)

When a game as popular as the Civs is out long enough, there were be enough players with enough time/skill/"meticulous nature" (to use a nicer phrase;)) that one "best" way to play will eventually come out, I think. And if that Best Plan is penalized there will be a New Best Way. You're never going to get the table legs quite even.

I suppose differences between the choices could be sanded away until they are all the same, but that sounds like it would be not too much fun either (and you'll end up sitting on the floor).

That all said, I think V does a pretty good job of balancing things considering how different all of the civs are--and that there are like six hundred uniquely created teams. Of course there will be some better than others.
 
Civilization 5 has more realistic graphics and is still being improved. The xcom squad series, bnw and be are all additional expansions to the vanilla civilization 5. As for civilization 4 which had bts and warlords expansions, there were less expansions in civilization 4. Civilization 4 also had scenarios like final frontier which looks like be from civilization 5.
 
When a game as popular as the Civs is out long enough, there were be enough players with enough time/skill/"meticulous nature" (to use a nicer phrase;)) that one "best" way to play will eventually come out, I think. And if that Best Plan is penalized there will be a New Best Way. You're never going to get the table legs quite even.

I suppose differences between the choices could be sanded away until they are all the same, but that sounds like it would be not too much fun either (and you'll end up sitting on the floor).

That all said, I think V does a pretty good job of balancing things considering how different all of the civs are--and that there are like six hundred uniquely created teams. Of course there will be some better than others.

That's true. And if we take a truly competitive game like Starcraft where there is a deep will to balance the game you are very right that no matter what, after each patch the metagame evolves and player end up having a limited set of techniques. But when it comes to civ, there are blatant imbalances that Firaxis hasn't fixed for years and which players just avoid as "noob traps". Weak civs, bad policies, terrible religious beliefs, the list could go on and on. This game isn't patched very often and probably won't ever be again (for balance purposes) after all.
We could also talk about how the AI now has trouble winning before T300 on Deity since BNW. This in my opinion is another problem never fixed and some of it is linked to balance.

And again it's not a matter of making choices all the same, it's a matter of making them viable (in a certain situation) compared to another option. While making them all 100% equal isn't a possibility the purpose should be to close the gaps. And gaps there are.

Now, to CiV credits, it's still better than some other 4X games so don't take that the wrong way ! :) And like I said I can't compare to IV, I did not play that game enough to comment on its balance.

I don't know, to me the Fall Patch was really a disappointment. 6 months of work for the final patch to CiV which fixed only a part of the problems (at least it didn't create additional ones). I'm surprised if people are entirely satisfied about the current game balance.
 
I am a long time Civ fan, dating back to Civ 1. I have returned to 5 for the first time since it was originally released. I loved 4 and played it constantly. Prior to the release of 5 there was a great deal of pre-release hype from the review sites about how wonderful it was. Unfortunately, the fan base for 4 did not see it that way. We all rushed to buy it, many of us having been seduced by the appealing graphics. However, the game play was so different from 4 that a very large number of 4 fans just drifted away. I was one of them.

There were many long, detailed posts about why the game did not live up to the expectations of the Civ 4 community. I’m sure you can find them if you search the site. For me, it was a disappointed in overall gameplay. I can’t remember all the things I didn’t like, but suffice to say they led me away from Civ.

HOWEVER, in the last two months, I came back and discovered that Gods & Kings was now a free attachment to the original game on Steam. I thought I would give it a try and am happy to say that I was hooked again. I’m not sure I like it because the game is more balanced (not sure what that means anyway), but there are a number of things that I like:

1. Combat is much more interesting. In 4 I would load up a stack with siege units and pummel a city into submission. The stack was impregnable because it was so large. In 5 I have to really think about the positioning of my units since I can only have one on a hex at a time. City attack takes a lot more tactical planning.

2. The differences between the unique abilities, buildings and units for each civilization make for interesting choices about how to manage the civs growth. As beetle says above, the kind of variability this creates between the civs is a good thing for the game.

3. I didn’t like the city state concept at first, but have come to the conclusion that it creates another level of interaction for me that is interesting.

4. Diplomacy is okay, and I wish it was possible to trade techs, but I can live without that.

I am not the type of player who delves deeply into the mechanics and mathematics of the game. Most of my games take a long time to finish and during that time I want an interesting strategic challenge. I am finding that 5 does that for me now that it has been so modified from the original.
 
I like that after BNW, you really have to think about military action. Before that, in IV for example, it was always build-up, attack, rinse, repeat. Still fun to play, but now you have to finesse your way through shameless land-grabs.
 
I've played Civ V a lot more than Civ IV so can comment most on that, although both games have some glaring balance issues.

The big difference is that Civ V is designed in a way that makes imbalances a lot more relevant to gameplay: for example the effort at tall vs. wide requires trying to fine-tune the various options to balance one against the other in Civ V, and is less than successful. Bigger was always better in Civ IV, but like all previous entries in the series it didn't make serious efforts to encourage tall play.

Then there's tech progression: Civ V's tech progression is stratified so that different, fairly rigid tech paths compete with one another, and some are simply suboptimal by comparison. Civ IV had its fair share of go-to techs and equally its mostly useless techs, but that didn't affect gameplay as drastically and you could play a more varied tech progression strategy without being forced along weaker paths.

A lot of Civ V systems, by encouraging strict trade-offs between one option and another, result in optimal 'builds' in this way - social policies vs. civics are another.

i thought C4 was substantially harder. stack mechanics were more than i felt like thinking about but that's just me. i felt the AI was more capable of mounting a sudden facesmashing invasion as well.

Civ IV, and the previous titles, could indeed kill a player quite capably with giant stacks. But that's basically all they could do - Civ V's AI seems a lot more capable at challenging the player for peaceful victories on the higher difficulties.
 
This sort of question immediately bring up the concept is is the game better or worse not just the balance, as it has done already so is really an unfair question because it is like comparing an apple to an apple pie.

An apple pie is a much more complicated entity compared to an apple and more difficult to make as it has more ingredients which need to be mixed in the correct proportions for it to taste nice and you don't have to have the exactly perfect mix down to the grain of sugar or gram of flower for it to still be as good or greater than a plain old apple.

The best opinion i can give is that overall i feel a lot less disappointed with civ V than i did with previous versions. I was always disappointed with previous versions because i felt they didn't live up to their promise and potential because they were missing important aspects while with civ V i just feel the game would be better with a few tweaks.
 
I've played Civ IV a lot, but honestly, I sucked at this game. I played for fun or role-play, not really to win, and couldn't even beat Noble difficulty. So I don't know which civilizations, leaders, technologies, government civics... were OP or UP.

I remember a thread about permanent revolution and men with axe. A strat you can use with any civs to win early, even on Deity.

Fun I have with Civ V is more important than with Civ IV. I'm over 1 000 hours where, I only played 300 hours on Civ IV (my main Civ was Civ I, I can't evaluate how many times I spend on it).

A thing that really bored me in Civ IV were stack of units (I learned recently it's call «stack of doom»).
 
I never really liked CIV 4. The civilizations were too alike and, to me, it didn't seem to matter much which civilization I played. So, sure, 4 was pretty balanced imo but so much so that it made the game itself boring... Just going through the motions.

Civ V starts out with all of the civilizations being pretty much on equal footing but the amount of variability between them adds flavor and strategy (BNW). I think a player should be rewarded for making good decisions and punished for making bad decisions, balance should be up to the player and what set of challenges he is faced with at the moment and I think CIV V does a much better job of it.
 
That's true. And if we take a truly competitive game like Starcraft where there is a deep will to balance the game you are very right that no matter what, after each patch the metagame evolves and player end up having a limited set of techniques. But when it comes to civ, there are blatant imbalances that Firaxis hasn't fixed for years and which players just avoid as "noob traps". Weak civs, bad policies, terrible religious beliefs, the list could go on and on. This game isn't patched very often and probably won't ever be again (for balance purposes) after all.
We could also talk about how the AI now has trouble winning before T300 on Deity since BNW. This in my opinion is another problem never fixed and some of it is linked to balance.

And again it's not a matter of making choices all the same, it's a matter of making them viable (in a certain situation) compared to another option. While making them all 100% equal isn't a possibility the purpose should be to close the gaps. And gaps there are.

Now, to CiV credits, it's still better than some other 4X games so don't take that the wrong way ! :) And like I said I can't compare to IV, I did not play that game enough to comment on its balance.

I don't know, to me the Fall Patch was really a disappointment. 6 months of work for the final patch to CiV which fixed only a part of the problems (at least it didn't create additional ones). I'm surprised if people are entirely satisfied about the current game balance.

A lot of those choices aren't meant to be balanced they are there to add flavour for the players that care more about empire building then winning/losing.

In Civ 4 you were pretty much screwed if you couldn't get early access to copper. How was that balanced?
 
Civ V is not a well-balanced game. This isn't necessarily a slight against it, depending on what you're looking for - Paradox games revel in being unbalanced, for example. However, I personally feel that in Civ V's case, it is a bad thing, because it is the sort of imbalance that limits choices, rather than creating them.

Let's start with the first - and biggest - problem, combat. The problem with combat in Civ V is that ranged units are absurdly powerful. Because of the way the system works, especially the Zone of Control rules, ranged units with a few melee defenders up front cycling in and out of position to heal can hold off a superiour force indefinitely. In the game's defense, it's hard to say if this is because the combat system is inherently imbalanced, or if it's just because the AI is so stupid, but either way it's a big problem.


Second, we've got the Civs themselves. This is entirely predictable - beginning with Civ 3, Civs have been growing more and more diverse - and that means less and less balanced. However, I would say that Civ V is the first game where there is a definite tier system in play, and I would argue that this is because in Civ V, the Civ distinctives actively shape the way the Civ plays. This can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your point of view. In Civ IV, most of the traits were transferable to a variety of victory conditions and playstyles. In Civ V, while the best Civs tend to have abilities that are transferable, most do not.

This is good in the sense that there is a lot more variety between the Civs, and playing one Civ will feel fairly different from playing another (though there is not quite so much variety as there is in a game like SMAC). However, it's bad in the sense that the power divide between different Civs is far larger than ever before, and there's a distressing amount of Civs who require specific map conditions, setups, and/or gameplay styles to be competitive - made even worse by the fact that there's quite a few Civs who are incredibly powerful in virtually any situation.

Personally, I prefer Civ IV's Civs. While I like the variety of Civ V, I feel that too many Civs are pigeonholed into either specific playstyles or specific map requirements. In Civ IV, the Japanese were arguably the worst Civ, but they weren't at too large of a disadvantage (and most of the disadvantage they did have wasn't from the Civ itself, but rather from their idiot personality's isolationist policies). In Civ V, the Danes are arguably the worst Civ, and holy crap, do they struggle.

For me, I see Civ V's Unique Abilities the same way I see a lot of changes the game made: Good idea, bad execution.


Third, the social policies. Social policies are like the definition of "Good idea, bad execution." When I first started playing the game, I absolutely loved the concept. You spend culture to invest in certain mentalities and values that define your culture - how awesome is that? But I ended up finding it inferior to not only Civ IV's Civic system, but even Civ 123's government systems. Why? Well, a couple reasons, but the biggest one is balance.

If you're familiar with Civ IV's Civics, that's a great case study for balance. Religion, Government, and I would argue Legal were very well balanced. Let's take Government: You've got Hereditary Rule, which gives +1 happiness per unit garrisoned in a city; Representation, which gives +3 happiness in your largest cities and +3 science from every specialist in your empire; Police State, which gives a 25% increase to production speed of military units, and a 25% decrease to unhappiness suffered from war weariness, and you've got Universal Sufferage, which gave you increased production from towns and allowed you to rushbuy things with money. All of those options are potentially very powerful and can be incredibly helpful in different situations. You are forced to make a choice. HR is great for growing, Rep is great for research and development; PS is important for wartime, and US is a fantastic tool for building and developing. Which do you go with? That depends on a lot of things.

However, Civ IV's Labor and Economic categories were anything but balanced. Let's take a look at Labor. We have Slavery, which allowed you to rushbuy with population; Serfdom, which made your Workers improve things 50% faster; Caste System, which allowed unlimited Artists, Scientists and Merchants and gave +1 hammer from Workshops, and Emancipation, which made your Cottages, etc, grow at double speed and spread unhappiness to Civs that weren't running Emancipation.

Here you don't really have a choice. Serfdom is flat out useless and will almost never be played, Emancipation is hardly any better and mostly only comes into play if the unhappiness penalty from other Civs running it becomes crippling; Caste System is potentially powerful for someone running a pacifist, specialist-heavy society, but even it is generally going to be inferior to Slavery - the ultimate powerhouse. There's simply nothing that can compare to being able to rush-buy things with your population. Grow your cities, discover a key tech, then in one turn whip out six or seven of the brand new units and use them to wipe the floor with your neighbour.


Civ V social policies (almost forgot what this thread was about, for a second), are like the Labor Civics. They're unbalanced to the point that you don't really have a choice. There are a few policy trees that are simply always optimal. No matter your playstyle, your civ, the map, you almost always want to go with Full Tradition->Patronage until Renaissance->Full Rationalism. This is the Slavery of SPs. 90% of the time, it's your best bet. Liberty and maybe Commerce are the Caste System of SPs: Hardly optimal, but still useful under certain circumstances. You might consider them the other 10% of the time. The rest - Honor, Piety, Exploration, arguably Commerce, Aesthetics - these are the Serfdoms. They're useless. There's no real reason to take them unless you want to challenge yourself (yes, even Aesthetics - it may seem custom-geared for a Cultural victory, but I'm not convinced that it's actually better for cultural victories than Patronage or Rationalism - Rat only contributes indirectly, but I would argue that getting the late game culture buffs earlier is far more useful than anything Aesthetics gives you). Usually if you do take them, it's only for the "opener" Wonder, and you never actually get any of the policies in it.


So, I guess, long story short: Civ V retains most of the balance issues of earlier games in the series while adding in a whole host of new ones, so I wouldn't call it a well-balanced game by a long shot. That being said, once again, balance and quality can be two different things, so depending on what you look for in a game, this is not necessarily a pejorative assessment.
 
A lot of those choices aren't meant to be balanced they are there to add flavour for the players that care more about empire building then winning/losing.

If your premise is that a strategy game with unbalanced choices, or choices only there for flavor, is an okay thing. Then let's agree to disagree.
 
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