SGOTM 14 - Fifth Element

For what i actually know by reading many of Jesusin's reports of his cultural victories (for the few which do not know him, he's a deity player particularly strong in culture, probably the best ever), i've learnt that a cultural victory actually begins when you're researching Education, thus in the mid game.
Until then, it's a game like any other: REX, improve the land, if needed or useful some early war... nothing special.

So sure, if the WOZ is a VERY modern unit (MA or MI) we need at least rifles, better infantry and in good numbers to kill it (him?). I doubt it will be a modern naval unit, it will cause too much trouble to the human and the AIs, all at the Stone Age.

Do you remember Stalin in SG 12? He's got nukes and grens from the start, but he was so isolated that he was never able to use them.
The same i think for the WOZ: it can be a modern unit isolated on a 1-tile-island, reachable only after Astro. Thus on top of everything, you will also need to attack it amphibious. Probably we can discover it with caravels. Depending on how strong it will be, we can go for culture and pull a decent date, while keeping research until AL or around there.
The real problem is if that unit is reachable only by Paratroopers: we can need a city close enough to launch them (me and UT are real experts on the use of Paratroopers, see SG09). This would bring the game further deep in techs, with the risk that any AI can roll us with tanks.

Enough speculation? yes. Live and see.

Ohhh and the marble is needed only for certain cathedrals. Cathedral resources are Stone, copper and marble. marble is needed for Islamic and Hindu cathedrals. Confu and Tao wont Copper, like Buddha and stone is needed for Christ. and Jew. But this is just a problem of production, they just double the base hammers.

Now, a thought comes in my mind: what if we try to found Judaism? With the super-safe date i managed, it can be worth to have another religion of our own. We need masonry and the BtS AI will hardly trade it. Mono can fit with Meow proposal to settle a NYC before the library.

Some testing? comments?

If we play it safe, culture and science together, culture still usually beats space by a good thirty turns. Though the way the great person drops could have a large impact.

I meant marble to make it hammer cheap. Obviously if we've become committed to a cultural victory the cost is irrelevant. I'm pro Judaism. We could use the boost from Organized Religion, and if we go to spread it. not having to have monasteries everywhere is a help.

Okay just ran several tests. I was not able to get a T55 oracle for CS like dredd but here is what I did get.

Settle on Desert. Explore with warrior

Research: AH -> Mining -> Writing -> BW -> Myst -> Poly ->Priest -> Math (Bulbed) -> COL -> Hunting

Builds:
Washington: Worker -> archer -> settler -> archer -> lib -> Oracle (there is another archer in there but I forget where)
New York : WB -> Library


As soon as writing was in I started building the lib and chopped it as soon as BW was in then I ran 2 scientists, Popped 2 GS between Priest and COL, one for academy and one for math.

Finished Oracle and took CS on T73.

So this worked in general, I still don't like taking CS and the oracle that late. I would prefer pre-T70 if possible but I guess maybe we have to push the envelope a bit.

AH first is better if we go worker first because they will finish on the same turn. Pasturing the sheep is done 2 or 3 turns before mining is done so we have a couple turns that are in need of management there.

I'll run more tests tomorrow

Here is a screenie with what i think is a good, but improvable, test.
Highlights:
- CS turn 67
- NY founded turn 39
- Judaism turn 41 (2360 BC)
- first GS ready next turn (68)

I'm thinking to the chance to further delay the library, build another settler for the stone and found Tao there.

The library counted almost nothing in this attempt, so...

For your convenience, i just made a spreadsheet with the turns/dates.

UT, you should be rusted. Beaten by 6 turns and with 3 more techs researched... shame

and with the Oracle in NYC... more shame

Now, off for the tests i requested. Without founding that religion i could have oracled CS billions years sooner. and without a GS.

We must keep that stupid city Governor under strict control. It wotks improbable tiles.

UT, I'm fairly sure that we won't need 2-3 archers. I'm keen to prioritise: 2 workers, warrior, library, settler and Oracle. For the first 60 turns we only need 1 warrior to sit in the Capital. If we need more military we can build it from the 2nd city. A second Worker is far more important, to getting the 2nd city up to speed quickly. Our first warrior can explore in a big anti-clockwise circle around our land,s and end up in the East to guard the 2nd city spot. We will need to take care that he's not eaten, as always.

BLubmuz, can you supply a litle more detail on your tech and build order? An early 2nd city seems to pay off very well.

For religions, it's much more beaker-efficient to grab Judaism after we switch to Beurocracy. We're going to found Confucianism anyway, so I don't see Judaism as vital unless we are 100% set on a cultural VC.

I'm liking what Blubmuz has. It looks good to me. It also looks like micromanagement Hell. Though that was to be expected.

WithTea said:

I'm liking what Blubmuz has. It looks good to me. It also looks like micromanagement Hell. Though that was to be expected.

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Yeah, at normal speed micro makes even more difference than normal. Until we've got 4-5 cities it's going to be worth spending time optimising micro. After that we'll just need fix govenor mistakes.

I just realised that Masonry is a requirement for Monotheism. I'd really rather get the Oracle out ASAP rather than heading down that path. Each turn we delay Bureaucracy we throw away 15 beakers (or more) which is huge in the early game.

I also don't think Judaism is a good bet in general - too much of an early diversion for limited benefit. If we want three religions we can always do Confucianism / Taoism / Christianity. Moreover, we'd want to adopt a neighbour's early religion for diplo reasons anyway.

And we definitely want to whip - it's of the best means of production in the early game, where (1) food is easier to obtain than hammers, and (2) pop growth is fast because total population is small.

Conquest is definitely more flexible and reliable. It's always a good idea to early rush a neighbour, no matter what the VC The early game is probably the same though, tech like crazy.

By the way, the purpose of Oracle is to get CS - is that so we can Bureaucracy-power a small empire? I just want to encourage us to think outside the box a bit - are there other techs we should consider? Is it worth it to get MC instead for forges / machinery / lower-path warfare? Can we change our mind as we learn more about our surroundings?

BLubmuz said:

I moved Toku far south, it's highly improbable that we start with an AI so close.
And given us the correct techs.

Click to expand...

BLubmuz, can you please upload that test game to save me from duplicating your work?

If we decide for culture, an early religion is far more important than a few beakers in the Capital.
We need to set up the game so that if/when we decide to confirm our choice we can be actually in good shape to do so.
I don't wanna make the same mistake as in SG11 (Gandhi) where we left all the options open, but actually we did not set up 2 decent legendary cities soon enough, thus we were cut off from Cultural.

This is why i prefer a slow teching and a quick REX to 3 cities and an early religion to a fast CS and a fast Academy.

Diplomacy with neighbours? good relations? sure, but not at all costs. If we found 3 religions we will adopt one of them. If our neighbours are pissed off, they can declare on us. Let them come.

pnp_dredd said:

BLubmuz, can you please upload that test game to save me from duplicating your work?

Click to expand...

Ask, and ye shall receive.
I adjusted many things on the map and gave the correct techs.

I would point out that we need masonry. How are we going to work the stone otherwise? And if we are already getting masonry, a small diversion to get the perks of a new religion that is the tech afterwards, seems small.

I wasn't saying not to whip, just that anything beyond very early game is difficult to do well.

WithTea said:

I would point out that we need masonry. How are we going to work the stone otherwise? And if we are already getting masonry, a small diversion to get the perks of a new religion that is the tech afterwards, seems small.

I wasn't saying not to whip, just that anything beyond very early game is difficult to do well.

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Your two sentences seems separated, but actually they're striclty tied.

Can we assume that, until proved the contrary, Culture can be the fastest VC?
I think that yes, we can (i already heard this, can't remember )

Why are we assuming that Culture is the best option for this game?
because our investigations on the initial save are telling us that's highly probable that:
1) we're in a land rich map, with no wrap
2) we're facing 8 AIs teamed in pairs, teching like Deity AIs or almost
3) a war can be difficult, since we'll face 2 AIs at once, not considering the usual dogpile if they're friendly with some neighbour (so that we can have 4 AIs sending units)
4) vassal are off
5) Culture is shortest than Space
6) if 2) is correct, Diplo is out of question, not for random personalities itself. In fact we can understand after few turns after met them who we're actually facing. In our latest test game, Toku is offering OB, so he should be someone else. And if there's Mansa and he would not even offer OB he can be Toku, sure like Hell.

Then, back to the above quoted post. We're all but Dredd weak in whipping. If we go for culture running Caste and a lot of artists is the way to go. We can probably use slavery during a GAge, only for few turns to whip something useful, then back to Caste.
And WithTea is forgetting another aspect of researching Masonry: what if we find marble? Better build a quarry than chop like mad. Or we can do both. Once arrived at that point, we can shoot for Mono, to ensure we have 3 religions. I have no doubts that we can found Tao.
And the city by the stone must be up and running asap. So, if we find marble in the neighborhood, city 2 there, city 3 by the stone ASAP.

Is Marble that good in the early game? It makes the Oracle build more efficient, but building a quarry usually delays completing Oracle. Other than that there's no valuable Marble-accelerated builds until Literature, so we don't need to hook it up that early. I still think Masonry/Monotheism is a detour unless we really badly want Stone for Pyramids.

beestar said:

Is Marble that good in the early game? It makes the Oracle build more efficient, but building a quarry usually delays completing Oracle. Other than that there's no valuable Marble-accelerated builds until Literature, so we don't need to hook it up that early. I still think Masonry/Monotheism is a detour unless we really badly want Stone for Pyramids.

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Not only more efficient, 100% more efficient. But we can even lack it. The main point of my previous post was a good set up for a cultural game at the expenses of some research.

I exposed my reasons for that. Please remember that culture is the VC i hate the most after Diplo.

I'm not sure it's worth risking the CS sling to found Judaism. Masonry would help with the Oracle build speed (if we have marble), yes, but the issue I think will be researching CoL and Math quickly, not building the Oracle quickly. Also, surely with OB we will have atleast one of either hindu/buddhism/judaism spread to us by an ai, and founding confu/tao will be easy. Ofcourse ai spreading a religion to us isn't a guarantee, but that would only mean a quick detour to theology or divine right.

I would point out that for fast teching Divine Right is expensive and a complete detour. The only other tech that requires Divine Right is Future Tech. I'd much rather spend one to two turns now on a tech we can use, than a dozen on Divine Right.

Though we are getting bogged down on what happens after. Perhaps the whole argument is premature. Are there any arguments about what to do right now? The tests seem to indicate that however we go, we're best off with worker and Animal Husbandry for the beginning, right? It's not something I have a problem with. Anyone else?

First off, Oracle completed on turn 66 is not a risk.
DR is not needed to research FT, in any case is expensive (but at later stage of the game) but mainly of almost no use for culture. Theo/Chris. is less expensive and of some use for culture and for civics. But with some religion monger in the game we can forget to found it.

Speaking of detours, BW is a more expensive one (compared to Mono), even if useful for chopping, but we decided to research it, no matter if we decide to not use slavery. The ability to see copper and horses early can be a good thing. The wheel is surely useful if we decide to settle soon 1-2 cities to immediately benefit from the TR and to speed the settlers/escorts movement.

So, WithTea is right, i think we have enough to set the targets for the first TS:
1) settle in the desert 1W of the settler present position
2) worker first (15 turns), then archer work sheeps
3) research AH-mining (the order is NOT important, the sum is 13 turns and the worker needs 15, so...) then the wheel - BW
4) improve sheeps first, then gems
5) the 4 techs should be completed on turn 25, 3000 BC (probably 26 to see copper), so i propose he stops there
6) IIRC, in my test the worker finished to build the pasture and the mine 2 turns before BW, so he can jump on the PH 2NW and mine it
7) the warrior will move 2-3 tiles N (roughly), then S (roughly) along the coast, then NW (again, roughly)

In my test, i started the settler the same turn Wash reached size 3, not completing the archer, but this is matter to discuss after WT TS.

Now, let's start the thing, or the grass will grow under our feet.

Please anyone give a green/red light.
Please WithTea, confirm if you approve and if everything is clear.

As I read it, even if everything else gets swapped around later. I should settle on the desert 1W. Build worker immediately. Research AH and mining. Hand off when Mining finishes. If there are no problems with that I'll do that tonight, and send the save in tonight, so people can discuss during their morning. (My middle of the night.)