Civ5 - shipping with Steamworks * plus Digital Deluxe Edition

The Total War fans made a similar fuss when Empire was announced as being Steamworks exclusive. The vast majority of them came around once they actually tried it out (and no, trying it 6 years ago doesn't count, it's been constantly improving).

RichPowers said:

My biggest concern is how Steamworks will affect mods...

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Steamworks can work very well with mods, it depends on how well Firaxis implement and integrate it though.

Eejit said:

Steam is a great service, I play civ as a non-native game via steam every game.

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For you maybe. For me, 100% not. Bottom line is I don't install software I don't use or don't want. And absolutely do not like being forced to install something I don't want.

[*]centralised backup and storage of user's settings

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My data stays on my machine. We're talking saved GAMES - noncritical data. I lose a civ save I start a new game - nothing is lost.

[*]the ability to offer 'free play' for limited times such as weekend deals, enticing customers,

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Not interested. Civ is good enough to buy (assuming it's not bundled with junk like Steam). Civ has sold 12m copies - they don't need to worry about something like this.

[*]the ability to reinstall your game on any computer with internet access even if disc is lost/broken

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Available from any digital distribution service without all the extra baggage.

[*]the option to defragment, verify game files and re-download corrupted ones without full reinstalls if something goes wrong

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Been gaming on PC since the Atari 800. Number of times I've needed to reinstall a game due to some kind of corruption out of 100's of games is ZERO. Useless feature.

[*]integrating steam friends list, voice, chat etc. with the game's multiplayer support

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Useless feature to me since I don't play multiplayer or use/want any of these features.

[*]detailed statistics for Firaxis as to buyers' hardware and software setups, allowing optimisation for updates and expansions to be targeted

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Firaxis' problem, not mine, and there are other sources for this info besides tapping player PCs. Plus, firaxis is like blizzard in that they usually make games that'll run on anything to appeal to their huge number of players.

[*]enabling automatic patching and rapid authentication and distribution of hotfixes

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Not interest - I prefer to control when things happen to MY computer.

[*]allows automatic download of mac versions (if available) of games if steam is installed on mac without buying a seperate version

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Since I'm PC guy why would I care about this?

[*]a tool for backing up installed games - including updates - onto another hard drive, DVDs or CDs which can then be easily restored/reinstalled from[/list]

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Again, we're talking games here - not business critical software. I'm a fanatical PC gamer but if I need to reinstall a game for any reason it's not a big deal and I don't need Steam holding my hand or involved in the process.



IMO, overall this is a slap in the face to the millions of fanatical civ players over the decades.

I am not so sure about the steam thing, I dont really like it. But you dont need to have constant internet access to play right? Just activate it now and then?

To add another civ in a delux version makes me pretty upset! However I am sure that you can get the leader in other ways, the maps also.

Zhahz said:

I buy, and have always bought, my games, and I'm sick of having garbage forced on me due to the scumbags that pirate, torrent, or otherwise steal games that these measures don't stop anyways.

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Steamworks is not just about combating videogame piracy (though I'm sure that's certainly a goal). It offers, free of charge, a number of attractive features: access to millions of Steam customers; fine-grained sales information; elimination of the second-hand market; support for DLC; auto-updates; achievements; etc.

I'm not going to pretend to know why 2K went with Steamworks, but attributing it solely to piracy doesn't capture the whole picture.

Eejit said:

The Total War fans made a similar fuss when Empire was announced as being Steamworks exclusive. The vast majority of them came around once they actually tried it out (and no, trying it 6 years ago doesn't count, it's been constantly imrpoving).

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It should also be noted that many hardcore PC gamers derided the lack of dedicated servers in Modern Warfare 2 (there was even calls for a boycott), but it still sold a ton of copies on the PC and is actually the most popular game on Steam in terms of concurrent players (it's the first game to surpass Counter-Strike in that regard).

In other words, don't mistake the feelings of a minority of disenfranchised PC gamers with the feelings of the market as a whole. 2K probably has a ton of data on how many people have bought Steamworks games, how often they play them, and how well previous editions of Civ have sold on Steam.

Steam cloud isn't just for restoring lost saves Zhahz, it allows you to log into another machine with the game installed and pick up where you left off with all settings and saves available.

But whatever, you're clearly not being open-minded about this so no point talking to you.

Personally I'm very happy Civ5 will be integrated with steam, but I'm kinda pissed about the Deluxe-exclusive Babylonians.

Eejit said:

Steam cloud isn't just for restoring lost saves Zhahz, it allows you to log into another machine with the game installed and pick up where you left off with all settings and saves available.

But whatever, you're clearly not being open-minded about this so no point talking to you.

Personally I'm very happy Civ5 will be integrated with steam, but I'm kinda pissed about the Deluxe-exclusive Babylonians.

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That's just not something I'm ever, ever, ever going to use--none of these "features" are--and not worth the trade-off whatsoever. Let's at least please not pretend that this was done as a benefit for the consumer.

I've been using Steam since Half-Life 2 came out. I now have around 100GB of games on it. When I need to reinstall my OS or install on another computer, all I have to do is copy the steamapps folder onto an external hard drive. Then I install steam and copy over the file. All you have to do to install each game is to start it up. Steam then finds that you have it already in your steamapps folder and installs directx. This process is faster than if you would install each game from disk the old fashioned way. About about an hour to install all games at once. BIG TIME SAVER. All 32 games. If they were all of the old style it would take all day to install them all (Yes, from disk). Once you download a game you don't ever have to download it again.

As for the servers going down eventually, think of this: Every 5-10 years a new console generation is begun and all console gamers have to start thier collections all over agian. Steam will be around a lot longer than that.

As for having to be online all the time: All you have to do is start a game once and it's offline capable (Except for UBISOFT DRMEd stuff). You don't even need to switch offline mode on. When there's no internet connection, offline mode starts up automaticly.

And if your game is Cloud compatible, your saved games can be uploaded once you are connected. (Using cloud for saved games is awesome if you have more than one computer. No need to copy saved games.) Sometimes it's hard to keep track of all my civ saves on all 3 of my computers/laptops. I hope Civ V has cloud capability. (Anyone who plays world of warcraft knows how cloud-saved games work. Nobody has ever had to worry about saving thier game in WOW. Think about it.)

Not only that, every player will be using the same version of every game. Finding a multiplayer match will be easier. Much Easier.

On a side note: Right now, half of my pc games have downloadable/digital versions. If my house gets broken into and someone steals all my games and hardware, all I have to do is go to a friend's house and make sure my passwords are changed. Those games can be reaquired without spending any money. (Wishing for SMACX on GOG. Please plaese please.)

SammyKhalifa said:

That's just not something I'm ever, ever, ever going to use--none of these "features" are--and not worth the trade-off whatsoever. Let's at least please not pretend that this was done as a benefit for the consumer.

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Yes, clearly because they wouldn't be used by you personally they're of no use to any consumer. Nice logic.

Tyranthraxus, Valve have stated that if they somehow go bankrupt and the Steam servers go offline the last thing they'll do is remove the need for steam authentication for the games so people can still play them. Though I'm not 100% sure if they can legally apply such a patch to non-Valve games even under such circumstances.

SammyKhalifa said:

That's just not something I'm ever, ever, ever going to use--none of these "features" are--and not worth the trade-off whatsoever.

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You might not be interested in those features, but other gamers might benefit from syncing their saved games to Steam cloud, or download Civ V on any PC they choose.

Let's at least please not pretend that this was done as a benefit for the consumer.

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It's not a zero sum game. Valve, 2K, and the consumer can all derive benefits from the transaction. Steam got to where it is today because it provided consumers with unique benefits while taking away others (e.g. ability to resell your game). In other words, the transaction wasn't one-sided and enough people were willing to make the trade-offs.

If the costs outweigh the benefits, then don't buy the game. But it's disingenuous to suggest that Steam and its partners are repeatedly anti-consumer. Any videogame service with millions of accounts that regularly pushes 2+ million concurrent users is clearly doing something right.

(For what it's worth, I refuse to pay full price for games on Steam because I don't really own them. I'll gladly and willingly use Steam, but only when the games I'm interested in reach the $10-20 price point.)

Tyranthraxus, Valve have stated that if they somehow go bankrupt and the Steam servers go offline the last thing they'll do is remove the need for steam authentication for the games so people can still play them. Though I'm not 100% sure if they can legally apply such a patch to non-Valve games even under such circumstances.

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This comes up quite often in Steam discussions, but no one has EVER supported this by linking to the appropriate section of Valve's legal ToS. Until such evidence is provided, this is but a baseless rumor.

It's not in the ToS afaik but I've seen the original post by the relevant Valve employee, and have seen some in Steam chat rooms who confirmed that's their plan.
It's an unlikely scenario anyway, Valve are very, very healthy financially.

RichPowers said:

It's not a zero sum game. Valve, 2K, and the consumer can all derive benefits from the transaction. Steam got to where it is today because it provided consumers with unique benefits while taking away others (e.g. ability to resell your game). In other words, the transaction wasn't one-sided and enough people were willing to make the trade-offs.

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Sorry, I was being unclear. Obviously there are things about it people like and use. But it wouldn't be mandatory if they just thought that there would be some nifty features people might enjoy. They didn't make this deal so that people can load saved games onto any PC or talk to their friends online.

SammyKhalifa said:

Sorry, I was being unclear. Obviously there are things about it people like and use. But it wouldn't be mandatory if thay just thought that there would be some nifty features people might enjoy. They didn't make this deal so that people can load saved games onto any PC or talk to their friends online.

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No, as he said, Firaxis benefit, most players benefit and Valve benefit. The people missing out are companies like Best Buy, if anyone, as it will likely introduce Steam to more users.
If Firaxis make more profit btw it's a benefit to hardcore Civ fans too, the more popular the series the longer they'll keep making games and expansions without being force-fed ridiculous deadlines which have been the bane of some franchises.

I don't really get what the fuss is all about. Steam these days is a very nice service, which I enjoy a lot, in fact, most of my gaming is done through steam. With its release for mac (hopefully this month), this will only make the situation better - hopefully this means Civ5 for mac getting released faster, and not by that horrible Aspyr.

The other piece of information (DLC civ) is, on the other hand, sad news. I sincerely hope Civ doesn't go down the episodic road which, while pretty good for some games (Half Life2? Sam and Max?) completely doesn't click with Civ.

Look at it this way, Valve as a company has a track record for doing right by the consumer, they make it easy to deal with DRM without some awful draconian system like Ubisoft or Spore had originally, no numbers of Machines, no hunting down old CD keys etc. If 2k games (and/or Firaxis) was set on using a digital distribution system, and was looking at their options for DRM.... can't we be somewhat glad they used Steam? I'll put my trust in Valve on this one anyway. I agree though that the added features were unlikely to be a motivation for 2k/Firaxis to do it this way, far more likely the tracking features as well as DRM features.

And as a Mac gamer I am rejoicing because this could mean that Civ V will be steam play capable, which would be a wonderful thing.

As far as mods go? well Firaxis can't talk enough about how they're supporting mods and such, including "community sites" presumably like this one. So it would strike me as absolutely bizarre if they made mods difficult to use in Steam given that all copies of Civ V will be Steam authenticated.

Personally I'm very happy Civ5 will be integrated with steam, but I'm kinda pissed about the Deluxe-exclusive Babylonians.

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This is the real problem. Complain all you want about Steam integration, the real problem is the "$10 extra dollars for an extra civ" model. Don't think that's going to stop with the deluxe edition. I think it's pretty much a given now that we're going to see civs as paid DLC. The only hope I have is that they wrap all the DLC civs together in the real expansion packs.

ok, I'm not a PC gamer beyond the civ series. Can someone please explain steam to me? Is it something I have to buy? If so, is it a one-time purchase or a subscription? I need to know this. I've been looking forward to Civ5 (so much), but if I need to buy a subscription to some service, it's gonna be a no sale. I just can't justify to myself buying a game at full retail price, and then paying monthly to play the game I already bought or losing my ability to play said game.

And on that note, I'm not thrilled with the DLC idea. Again, I already bought the game. That's how things should work-- I buy the game, you give me the complete game. We're done doing business. Paying full retail price for a game but getting a portion of the game, and then buying the rest of it piecemeal even though I already paid full retail price for the game-- that's just thievery. I'm not even comfortable with expansion packs for that reason.

But yeah, more importantly, explain this steam thing to a guy who is totally in the dark about PC gaming post 1990 >.>

cccv said:

ok, I'm not a PC gamer beyond the civ series. Can someone please explain steam to me? Is it something I have to buy? If so, is it a one-time purchase or a subscription? I need to know this. I've been looking forward to Civ5 (so much), but if I need to buy a subscription to some service, it's gonna be a no sale. I just can't justify to myself buying a game at full retail price, and then paying monthly to play the game I already bought or losing my ability to play said game.

And on that note, I'm not thrilled with the DLC idea. Again, I already bought the game. That's how things should work-- I buy the game, you give me the complete game. We're done doing business. Paying full retail price for a game but getting a portion of the game, and then buying the rest of it piecemeal even though I already paid full retail price for the game-- that's just thievery. I'm not even comfortable with expansion packs for that reason.

But yeah, more importantly, explain this steam thing to a guy who is totally in the dark about PC gaming post 1990 >.>

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Steam is free, basically you can use it to buy and manage games, manage friends, view game news, etc.

It also patches your games if you run it in online mode.

cccv said:

ok, I'm not a PC gamer beyond the civ series. Can someone please explain steam to me? Is it something I have to buy? If so, is it a one-time purchase or a subscription? I need to know this. I've been looking forward to Civ5 (so much), but if I need to buy a subscription to some service, it's gonna be a no sale. I just can't justify to myself buying a game at full retail price, and then paying monthly to play the game I already bought or losing my ability to play said game.

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Steam is completely free to use. It runs in the background and manages updates to games and provides other features I listed above while integrating community features (friends list, groups, chat etc). It allows you to buy games digitally and download directly to any computer with steam installed, and you can do the same with supported free mods. They frequently have great sales, esp around xmas.
It also acts as DRM, meaning you have to go online to authenticate your install first time even if you install from DVD. Thereafter internet access isn't required, you can use offline mode, though obv you'd miss updates.

It's basically a content-delivery and DRM service with some nice perks, though your mileage with those may vary.

One reason I like Steam is that I can always stop what I am doing and chat with people, and start a different game with a few clicks. No need to download no-CD files or switch discs.

well... if its steam only i cant buy it.