Fury Road LS Mod Mod

[Lib.Spi't]

Doctrines (I renamed civics!)

Spoiler:

Leadership
Chieftain:
Strength:
Wealth:
Military:
Democratic:

Military
Gang:
Militia:
Banditry:
Professional:
Robotic:

'Recruitment'
Survival:
Slavery:
Refuge:
Penal System:
Citizenship:

'Economy'
Barter:
Bottle caps:
Stocks and Shares:
Military Control:
Printed Currency:

'Research'
Scavenging:
Human Testing:
Scientific Study:
Military Science:
Computer Simulation:

This is what I have so far, it won't all stay 100% like this, but this is the basic framework that I will be building to, unless someone comes up with a much better idea!

[falseblackbear4]

Ok, that looks pretty good. Tell me what you think of my ideas. If you want me to explain what effects they would have and why I would be happy to do so.

Spoiler:

Just so you have an idea of where I'm coming from, these civics don't start with the base, survival, every man for himself type things. As the player starts out with a settlement, one must assume that they have a very basic society already in place. Basically, that means that they start with a Megaton type scenario, so the most basic civics are what those types of settlements have. Most of the civics I have in my list are used by factions throughout the fallout series, so I felt that was a good place to start.

Just some constructive criticism on your civics: Some of them don't seem to fit quite right. For example in your economic civics, Bottle caps and printed currency aren't really economic policies or systems. Those seem to me better suited to be techs than civics. Also military control seems too general, that could be any number of things, from communism, to corporatism, etc. Don't take this the wrong way, I just feel that civics could be better tailored to be specific enough that they fit well within each category, but not be so broad as to possibly be any number of things.

Basically, here's the idea I had.

With government (leadership) civics I went with more of what the government's structure is than what kind of people lead it. I'll address that kind of stuff later. Here are the government civics that I came up with:

Anarchy, as the initial state would be something like Megaton, with nobody truly in charge.

Despotism, this would be basically rule by the strongest/smartest/wisest, like the Legion, or the Great Khans.

Oligarchy. This would be ruling councils like Rivet City, Technocracies like the Commonwealth and the BoS, and if any collectivist societies were to arise they would be run by a politburo.

Democracy, rule by the majority, not really in place in any particular Fallout faction that I know of, but it is likely to occur.

Republic, rule of the law, seen in the NCR.

For Military I went with the following:

Militia: something like Megaton, basically citizen soldiers who fight part-time.

Mercenary: This would be like Rivet City, Tenpenny Tower, Raiders, Slavers, basically any group whose warriors are fighting for profit, either through wages or plunder.

Conscription: Similar to the Legion, trained soldiers forcefully recruited from the general populace.

Volunteer: A volunteer army, I would say this would probably be similar to your professional army civic.

Elite: This would be like the BoS. It's a small, highly trained, well armed fighting force.

For the economic civics, I feel that barter and bottle caps are really similar, so I combined them under bartering. These civic choices of mine need the most explaining, so if you are unsure about any of them just let me know. I really feel that these fit the Fallout universe well.

Bartering: Basically what is in place already in Fallout 3

Mercantilism: Basically it's the imperialist mentality. If you want more wealth, you have to take it. The Legion is the best example of this.

Corporatism: Crony capitalism, this is basically what the NCR has.

Capitalism: For this I went with aggregate supply-side economics (my personal favorite).

Collectivist: Basically any kind of socialist, communist, or utilitarian society. There aren't any real communists in fallout (except the Chinese ghouls), but there's bound to be some commies somewhere.

For the "recruitment" tree, I feel that the recruitment of soldiers is already sufficiently covered in the "military" tree. IMO there should be a tree that is what the society emphasizes, as this can have large effects on a civilization (militaristic Legion vs. technocratic BoS)
Here's what I have:

Survival: Society just wants to survive (Megaton)

Conquest: Warrior culture (Great Khans, Legion)

Productivity: Emphasis on efficiency, basically making money and creating a lot.

Enlightenment: The "cultured" society, trying to preserve and revive old world culture and values. (Followers of the Apocalypse)

Research: Society based on the preservation and development of tech (BoS)

I felt that "research" should reflect what a civilization actually does with its tech, so I would call it "Technology". One thing that I think would be interesting for these is that only certain civics in this tree can train Power Armor units. Of course, the civics that don't would have their own unique benefits.
Here's what I have for that:

Scavenge: Again, basically what Megaton does.

Ignore: This is what the Legion does, not necessarily for the sake of being a Luddite but more because they feel that basing their civilization off of scavenged and difficult to reproduce tech is a bad idea.

Hoard: This is what the BoS does, find all the tech they can and keep it for themselves

Distribute: This is basically distributing the benefits of tech amongst the populace.

Utilize: Basically what the NCR does. The populace gets the benefits of the tech, but the government controls it.

Those are my ideas. Feel free to ask any questions about them. Many of them will probably seem like better ideas if you know a more in-depth explanation as to why I chose them or what effects they will have. IMO these techs are best tuned to the Fallout universe as all of them have some sort of reference already in the canon or they aren't that far off, and they also are specialized so that each tree has an effect on a different aspect of the civilization, and don't have any overlaps (civics in different categories that essentially are/are doing the same thing.)

Again, if you have any questions don't hesitate to ask.

[Lib.Spi't]

Ok here are my thoughts on your ideas:

Spoiler:

Judging from your comments and examples, I am guessing you have only played Fallout 3/NV and not the originals?

The game we are building, spans from before F1 right the way through to NV, so some of the assumptions that you made are not entirely fitting.

The first era is set in a pre F1 time frame. You take on the role of a small band of survivors who must build up their little huddle of frightened people to the beginnings of a frontier town and the birth of a Fallout empire. (Unless you play as the Enc or BoS)

I purposely avoided using 'modern' social, political and economic ideas as I do not want them to feel like a clone of the BtS civics. Also the 'general' concept is intentional, I do not want the concepts to be too specific, it is all about the emphasis of where power lies within a given faction. So Military is simply the concept that those who fight the wars also rule the empire. So in a military system, he who controls the army controls decision making, this could be a 'Hawk' party, a general, or the man who inspires legendary devotion in his troops, it is a power that emphasises the power of the gun in the hands of men within an accepted military hierarchy. Strength is simarly but different, it is the 'Alpha Male' mentality, There can be only one! and it is up to them to put down rivals and pretenders through a show of personal strength.

bartering and bottle caps are two very different concepts, bottle caps represent the first evolution of apocalyptic economy, that require everyone to agree on a common market value for a bottle cap, before this moment a chicken was worth what ever anyone would be willing to give you for a chicken, with bottle caps, everyone has to agree that a bottle cap is worth the 'promise' of something else. Bottle caps reward the best scavengers, because if you find a bottle cap it is worth something.
Printed currency is a more 'power centric' form of currency, again everyone has to agree that a particular promisery note is worth something (denoted by the overall power and influence of the issuing group) it allows a power group to control the distribution of wealth within their own sphere of influence, they print the quantity of wealth and distibute it to who they see fit.
Stocks and shares, denotes a focus on land and control of real estate and productivity, the value comes from what a particular company or property can produce of value, a factory that can sell 10 things a month has less promised value than something that can produce and sell 100 things. Military Control, throws out the system of economic value and returns it to a 'legitimate banditry' it simply states, 'If I want what you have I will take it! Whether or not you are still breathing after is up to you'. Strength becomes the only legitimate currency.

For science, I wanted the player to be able to specifiy where the energy of scientific study is focussed, also allowing them to make certain questionable choices to enhance the speed of development if they have a firm control of their population.

What a faction does with the tech will in one way be determined by the specific factions personality (Enclave Bad, Super Mutants Worse)and through unique and civic specific buildings and also if the player wants to spend his cities time building 'public works' or specific buildings to further his own agenda, you decide what you do with the tech, by deciding what to build.

For recruitment, this is about more than just military recruitment, this is about the way you enlarge your population and 'welcome' others into your post apocalyptic family. Do you offer food and shelter, or simply the promise of continued existence if they do what you say. How much power and rights do you give to the individual, refuge is cashing in on the gratitude of strangers for their safety, slavery is simply that you do not give a crap about their well being, they can work for you or they can die, the choice is their's, penal system puts undesirables to work, but with in a frame work of minimal rights. Citizenship is the empowerment of equality, join and receive rights and privileges like everyone else.

I also want to try and avoid a progessive civic tree, by that I mean a new civic is not necessarily a better civic, it depends much more on the situation of your faction, if you have a lot of scavenger camps then scavenging will remain a powerful civic for a long time, but if you have a lot of villages around your towns, they a printed currency would serve you better.

I am still working on what the various civics will actually do in game terms, I need to try and break it down to smaller stages of coding development, starting with the inherrent civic stats, then moving onto how they affect specialists, then move on to speicifc building and unit combos probably... whether all of these things will be available in the alpha release, I do not know.. It depends how far we get with development overall, as to what exact form of 'finishedness' the Alpha release will represent. (and how much work I can con out of my helper monkeys :P)

[falseblackbear4]

Ok, that makes more sense then. I would also be happy to write the descriptions, but I think it would be better to wait until Wednesday when I can PM people.

Spoiler:

However, due to it's prevalence throughout the NCR, I would still want to include corporatism.

Here are my ideas on how the effects should take place (Just leadership so far, I'll try to come up with the rest later).

Spoiler:

Chieftain:
Increased Happiness in capital
Increased Production in capital
Unhappiness per number of cities
High maintenance for distance to capital

Strength:
Certain numbers of free units
Reduced unit upkeep
Unhappiness
Unhealthiness
Reduced culture
Reduced research

Wealth:
Increased wealth
Increased production
Less inflation
Unhealthiness
More war unhappiness

Military:
Less war unhappiness
Free military units
Lower unit upkeep
Unhappiness
Less culture
Less research

Democratic
More war unhappiness
More unit maintenance
More happiness
More culture
More money
Less production

That's just my take. If you're wondering why I thought these effects seem appropriate, just ask. I'm assuming that with the building/unit effects these can be balanced further, and you can balance the magnitude of these effects so that the finished product doesn't have any clearly superior civic.

[Lib.Spi't]

I don't really like the term corporatism, corporate systems will be represented under the stocks and shares and wealth doctrines

overall, I like the values you attributed to the leaderships, seems fairly accurate.

One thing to think about, culture has been replaced by safety, same basic mechanic, jsut a different emphasis on where it comes from, so potentially a military leadership would have a higher than normal safety, even if it comes at the cost of civil liberty.

[falseblackbear4]

That's right, I completely forgot about how culture was changed to safety. I'll take that into account. As far as the economy civics go, here are my ideas:

Spoiler:

I'm assuming that some of these will have to have unit/building traits, as for some of them on their own I had a hard time coming up with more than a couple civ-wide effects. Maybe some sort of trade caravan building that gives bonuses to barter and bottle cap economies, and other things along those lines?

Barter:
Maintenance costs from distance to capital
No inflation
Limit on number of trade routes

Bottle Caps:
Moderate inflation
Less safety (people scavenging the ruins for bottlecaps and running into raiders, mutants, etc.)

Stocks and Shares (this seems to have a lot of advantages, and the detriments it seems to have are dependent on how "abusive" the factory/farm/company owners are):
Reduced inflation
More production
More wealth
More food
More trade routes
Unhealthiness
Higher maintenance costs
War unhappiness
Unhappiness in largest cities(?)

Military control:
Free units
Less unit upkeep
Higher city maintenance
Less wealth
Less research
More safety
Less war unhappiness

Printed currency:
High inflation
More wealth
More trade routes

Again, I'm assuming that these will be further balanced out with units and buildings.

[Lib.Spi't]

Overall these are good ideas, yes you are right there will be buildings linked with these as well, basically my thoughts are kind of like this:

Spoiler:

Barter and bottle caps will mostly give benefits to scavenger camps, maybe barter will give a greater boost to the bonus resources, but bottle caps will give a greater boost to scav camps in general, with less for bonus resources. I thnk it would also been fun to have a 'bottle bank' building just becuase this makes me smile :P

Yes stocks and shares will be mostly like you said, as well as having boosts for mines and farmsteads and the like, I think it will also require a political ideology (state religion) to be present in order to gain most of the benefits, representing the need for an organised state to be in place, I may also make several 'levels' of the various improvements, with negatives to lower levels and benefits to the highest levels, as well as increased improvement 'growth' so this could be good for both developing and fully developed civs,if you can afford the loss of productivity, your improvements will develop fast, and a fully developed civ will gain many benefits too. i will probably add some kind of negative to scavenger camps as well, to show a general disdain for the old scavenger culture.

Printed currency will give benefits to villages, the increased population generating in essence a greater 'wealth class'

Military control will mostly give boosts to military production, at a general cost of happiness and productivity in other aspects, so for this to work you need to maintain a strong military grip on your people

I have never really known how the inflation mechanic works in civ...

[Randomness]

inflation increases your costs by x percent. X increases as the game goes on.

[Lib.Spi't]

ok so it is mostly just linked to time then, and civics can increase or decrese the time frame of major inflation.

Do you know if there are any other factors that increase or decrease inflation speed?

[Randomness]

I think in vanilla, inflation is mainly used to scale gold income with costs. The further in the game you are, the more money you make, so things have to cost more, otherwise, you'd make an absurd amount of gold. Certain mods, like A New Dawn, allow techs, civics, ect, to have more effect. IMO, unless you want to really get into it, leave inflation alone, just use gold modifiers. They're easier to understand for the modder and players alike.

[falseblackbear4]

So religions will become political ideologies?

[Lib.Spi't]

yes, every faction has it's own Political Power that is founded when they build a national capital

[abs823]

This mod sounds really awesome, I am very excited .

[Lib.Spi't]

Good to hear we are hoping (fingers crossed) to have our Alpha Version released soon! (Mid May)

[keldath]

HELLO Lib.Spi't,

glad to see that your mod is coming alone nicely - i cant wait to play it.


i wanted to warn you about your sdk code that u provided me a while ago -

the bombard forts from super forts - causes a crash , so something in the merge isnt right.

also -

you forgot to merge some segments of super forts in the file civ4textngr.cpp.

also -
you didnt merge some important segments fo specialist unit enhancement for the same file - civ4textmng.cpp.

gluck,

i couldnt solve the crash issue of the bombard option on forts, so i disabled it for now.


****edit***
oh the crash was my fault - i didnt delete 2 lines from kmod. .

but still - u need to add the missing lines to the text mgner cpp file.

[Lib.Spi't]

Would you be able to send me a version of the .cpp file with the missing lines highlighted, I,LL never find it otherwise I have had a couple ctds and an infinite turn bug happening intermittently so fingers crossed that is the cause

[Lib.Spi't]

The First Alpha Release of Fallout: Tame the Wastes is HERE!!

Fallout: Tame The Wastes