Strategy on higher difficulty

I'm pretty good. Not great. I can win on level 7 on smaller maps, but I really like giant ones best. So there is the setting.

I just quit a game in disgust after many hours. I am dying to start again with my teeth grit and fist clenched.

Dido declared war and sent in more than a dozen biplane bombers...

...in 1765.

1.7.6.5. As in, before the American war of independence, Napoleon, or Beethoven. Her score was just slightly above mine, but I was defending with some old composite bowmen and my nifty new cavalry.

I only recently moved up from level 6, and this sort of thing happens in some fashion from time to time. Not this severe before, but my question is, is this just what I can expect to be up against? Or am I doing something wrong?

What victory condition were you seeking? If warring, then it's possible for YOU to win the game before this on Immortal, by taking the fight to the AI. But I suspect you were playing peaceful, and either you were still behind the AI in terms of science, in which case you should get some advice from the peace mongers about how to grow your cities, or you had neglected your military.

If you post a screenshot or a save file we can help you more easily.

Victory...this was going to be science probably. I usually go for science. It pairs nicely with strong military, so I take out the capital of the most advanced opponents and sail from there. Oh, and it's BNW. I typically stay mostly peaceful until I get dynamite. I just build enough military to deter would-be attackers.

Thinking about this, I could upload a screenshot, but what would I show?

Finnagain said:

Dido declared war and sent in more than a dozen biplane bombers...

...in 1765.

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People have beaten the game using Science (meaning they researched like 95% of the tech tree) by turn 225.

The year stated is actually completely irrelevant. What turn were you on?

In generally, you'll need to win by about turn 450 on Immortal and by about 350 on Deity.

I'm gonna assume 1765 is around t260 on standard or something close to that...
Sure, typical deity AIs easily have flight+biology at that turn number (runaways will have something much scarier) but IMO it's quite rare for immortal AI to be that fast in tech.

Try reading Tabarnak's Tradition guide and Acken's Freedom Science guide. Both are easily found.

The highest levels are a whole new game, in my experience. I'm still trying to adjust to the requirement to be a lot more "interventionist" or proactive. If you just sit in a corner and let the AIs get on with it, one or other of them will become a mastodon that you can't overcome. You need to find some way of constantly hampering their development, through diplomacy, war, or some other technique.

Some of the real experts manage to win games on deity in 200 turns or even less. I still don't quite know how they manage it. However, I've found that I've learned most by watching videos. They take a long time, but they teach you things that written guides cannot. I keep on posting this link to a video, but I think that for a "learning player" it's an interesting demonstration of what can be done. It certainly opened my eyes. It's also very entertaining!

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFWnpbmrXTopBRamdS8ITzq5LGjnE-7tN

Cheers.

Nice to see you keeping the Peddro faith going, mbbcam!

For a SV you want a 4 city tradition approach, opening Commerce after you've completed Tradition. Locations should be a balance of growth/production with emphasis on growth, preferably with a unique luxury. Science is all about growth so make sure you grow. Some timescales I've found to be a guaranteed SV win are:
NC by t80, perhaps doing a 2 city NC with the other 2 settlers prebuilt/built and settle the turn you complete the NC.
Education(with at least 1 university bought) t110
Scientific Theory(all schools bought/built) t160
Plastics(all labs bought/built) t190

One thing I struggle with on the Science front is getting the BPT high enough early enough. My cities can even be huge but I never get to Plastics by T190.

consentient said:

...My cities can even be huge but I never get to Plastics by T190.

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Depends on what you mean by huge, I once had my capital at pop 30 by the time I entered the Renaissance era. Granted I had huge luck with WLTK. You could try the "buy for 28gpt, wait 1 turn then DOW" tactic. Of course this can't be your friend, or anyone else's friend(that you care about). Since the Halloween patch I'm bulbing earlier, especially for Industrialization. If I have coal then Oxford is used to bulb Plastics with a GS bulb for Radio and Replacement Parts, if not it's Radio. Granted I've "wasted" 3 GS but I don't think I have as the the jump to Scientific Theory can be a nearly doubling of bpt, the same goes for the jump to Plastics.

consentient said:

One thing I struggle with on the Science front is getting the BPT high enough early enough. My cities can even be huge but I never get to Plastics by T190.

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Are buying/building all the science buildings as soon as they are available?

mbbcam said:

The highest levels are a whole new game, in my experience. I'm still trying to adjust to the requirement to be a lot more "interventionist" or proactive. If you just sit in a corner and let the AIs get on with it, one or other of them will become a mastodon that you can't overcome. You need to find some way of constantly hampering their development, through diplomacy, war, or some other technique.

Some of the real experts manage to win games on deity in 200 turns or even less. I still don't quite know how they manage it. However, I've found that I've learned most by watching videos. They take a long time, but they teach you things that written guides cannot. I keep on posting this link to a video, but I think that for a "learning player" it's an interesting demonstration of what can be done. It certainly opened my eyes. It's also very entertaining!

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFWnpbmrXTopBRamdS8ITzq5LGjnE-7tN

Cheers.

Click to expand...

This was a very useful post. Thanks, all. I believe I have my answer from your conversation, albeit working hard to translate the cryptic abbreviations .

I was playing a scenario map this time (I think it was called "terra", Indonesia, standard pace, so yeah right about turn 260) wherein the New World was unoccupied by players until you get to caravels. As you might imagine, I spent a lot of effort on something that was ultimately entirely unprofitable. I had four cities until then, so this almost certainly impacted my advancement.

I will definitely be watching the vid you attached. But I think for now, I want to enjoy exploring and settling the new world, so I may just set the game up on level 6 this time. I don't see how I can do that and also win at such a cutthroat difficulty.
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Hey, one more thing.

The Candi unique building feels OP. I generate insane amounts of faith, and with the fool AIs repeatedly sending in religions, I typically get to spend it on several religious buildings per city and have plenty left for Great Engineers to use on industrial and modern age wonders or several Great Scientists. Is the consensus that this building is amazing?

budweiser said:

Are buying/building all the science buildings as soon as they are available?

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Yes. I build them if <10 turns, or buy them otherwise.

Finnagain said:

one more thing.

The Candi unique building feels OP. I generate insane amounts of faith, and with the fool AIs repeatedly sending in religions, I typically get to spend it on several religious buildings per city and have plenty left for Great Engineers to use on industrial and modern age wonders or several Great Scientists. Is the consensus that this building is amazing?

Click to expand...

Yes, Candis are great! Have you tried the DCL #13?

Finnagain said:

Dido declared war and sent in more than a dozen biplane bombers...

...in 1765.

1.7.6.5. As in, before the American war of independence, Napoleon, or Beethoven. Her score was just slightly above mine, but I was defending with some old composite bowmen and my nifty new cavalry.

I only recently moved up from level 6, and this sort of thing happens in some fashion from time to time. Not this severe before, but my question is, is this just what I can expect to be up against? Or am I doing something wrong?

Click to expand...

That does seem quite early. I'm assuming that Carthage has probably knocked out some other Civs and is in a very powerful position - basically becoming a runaway? Can you clarify this in the demographics screen? Does she come first in population, literacy, manufactured goods & military scores? If so and she is your neighbour than you should worry.

But I can tell you your primary problem right here. She has Great War bombers and you are defending with cavalry and composite bowmen. Cavalry are already 1 generation behind GWBs and composite bowmen are about 2.5 generations behind.

On the lower difficulties generally you can play your own game and the AIs don't really do all that much but on the higher difficulties you don't have that luxury - they will kill you if they get the chance. So if you're sitting in a corner being the nice guy just building wonders and minding your own business with no army they will come after you. Just remember everytime you meet an AI remind yourself that they are ultimately programmed to kill you.
You ultimately need a mixture of diplomacy and military to protect yourself. Great War Bombers are also a pain because there is no unit that can counter them until you get Anti-Aircraft Guns (assuming you don't have flight and have no oil). This is something you do need to keep an eye as it can easily ruin you - you would have to forget about teching to Plastics and rush for Ballistics or Flight.

Edit: Many of the guides for rushing science victories etc will tell you to how maximise beakers which is great and it will help your game so you play more efficiently but you also need to develop a 6th sense to gauge what exactly is going on in the neighbourhood. I.e. sometimes you might have to turn on & attack your friendly neighbor if they are killing the other Civs because if you let them get away with it they will come after you once they are too powerful. That is part of the fun of playing Civ at a higher difficulty. There is a lot of politics going on and you have to be watching what everyone else is doing - you can't just sit in the corner and fence the world out because it will come to you.
The obvious example here is if you want to play Science victory prioritise researching Philosophy and building the National College. But this is risky because it means you put all your research into the top half of the tech tree which leaves you vulnerable. If your neighbors have peaceful personalities you may be able to do it but if you have Rome or Greece or any of the unfriendly AIs as a neighbor and you see them building a lot of units you would be well advised to forget about rushing to Philosophy and instead research Construction to get Composite bowmen.

Redaxe said:

Great War Bombers are also a pain because there is no unit that can counter them until you get Anti-Aircraft Guns (assuming you don't have flight and have no oil). This is something you do need to keep an eye as it can easily ruin you - you would have to forget about teching to Plastics and rush for Ballistics or Flight.

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You have to get Flight before you can get AA guns. Cannot avoid it. Which is rather annoying.

Redaxe said:

If your neighbors have peaceful personalities you may be able to do it but if you have Rome or Greece or any of the unfriendly AIs as a neighbor and you see them building a lot of units you would be well advised to forget about rushing to Philosophy and instead research Construction to get Composite bowmen.

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Yeah, Composite can defend against anything until Longswordsmen/Musketmen easily and then Xbows can defend until Riflemen.

LordBalkoth said:

Yeah, Composite can defend against anything until Longswordsmen/Musketmen easily and then Xbows can defend until Riflemen.

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When you play peaceful, don't you find it cheaper to bribe the aggressor to go after someone else than build units until CS give you some?

Finnagain said:

Dido declared war and sent in more than a dozen biplane bombers... in 1765.

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It is immersion breaking! But as others have said, don’t pay attention to the year as it is maybe calibrated to Prince or King. That said, I think the game could be improved if certain technologies could not be unlocked until a few decades before they were historically available. There are other discrepancies, but it also seems very strange that I can get Satellites before unlocking tanks. Of course, I am hardly the first one to complaint about the tech tree balance!

beetle said:

There are other discrepancies, but it also seems very strange that I can get Satellites before unlocking tanks.

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How about discovering the internet before computers?

consentient said:

When you play peaceful, don't you find it cheaper to bribe the aggressor to go after someone else than build units until CS give you some?

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Sometimes, sometimes not. If you have Attila breathing down your neck with a massive army, yeah, easier to bribe him to attack elsewhere. Sometimes, though, you get a situation where you're surrounded by relatively equally "tough" Civs and no one really wants to go to war with each other. And even if you do bribe them at a high price they'll stop after the required 10 turns (think it's 10 and not 15 for that, but may be wrong) and then you have to repeat...with that original bribe payment still continuing for another 15+ turns.

Really, though, you can usually defend a 4 city Tradition empire with like...4 archers that get upgraded into comps and then xbows. And no maintenance due to Oligarchy (which also boosts your city damage, woo hoo). Maybe throw in a spearman/pikeman to "tank" some of the hits and you're usually golden. The worst part is the Ren/Ind Eras since since Gatlings cannot hit Trebs/Cannons (since you (hopefully) haven't been warring so no range promotion). Which means you need to maintain Xbows, which can really struggle against Riflemen and then GWI. On the flip side, once you get like...2-3 GWBs with Air Repair (and ideally a Medic) then your defensive worries are basically over for the rest of the game (you'll potentially need a few more planes later on versus larger armies with SAMs/AA but planes still wreck the AI).

Liberty can be more prone to bribing, though, sure.

I have a pretty good handle on the idea of disruption. I would have to read up on how to actually do it best, I am quite sure. Big maps are hard because you often can't get to the runaway opponent to interdict. This is certainly the case here. Only it was not Dido. She was at 600 while I was at 548. Darius just recently came into power at like 1133 or something. I really felt like I could have won this one right up until I realized I was so far behind...Heh. I wonder if my relatively large religion income (53/turn) fluffed my number disguising how far behind I was or something.

Anyway, I attached the save file because I was having trouble getting a screen shot. I think I am in too high a resolution or something for that. If any of you get the urge, feel free to load it up and tell me how awful I am.