How good players think differently from new players

New Player: Great Library is the best wonder ever! I must get this every game or rage quit!!

Good Player: Rushing GL is very risky and requires significant opportunity cost to growth and infrastructure. I think I'll pass....
 
CraigMak said:
Yes, some civs have nearly useless abilities while others are God mode. If Byzantium had all that I would not go Piety. Piety is a dumpster fire as well as Honor. Tradition and Liberty are the only viable paths to be competitive.
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I was reading your comments on the MP thread about speed chess and intelligence. Actually I agree with your comments on that topic more so than disagree with it. However, this statement is absurd. To say that Honor is not viable on Deity is not true and you can go Full Piety on Deity as well winning almost every game if you so choose. I am not going to say they are better than Trad/Liberty but to say that they are not viable is absurd once again just like the thread in the General Forum Section that is titled... "Liberty Does Not Work On Deity"

However, if your comment was only aimed at MP I would have to agree with you that only Trad and Liberty are viable.
 
CraigMak said:
Piety is a dumpster fire as well as Honor. Tradition and Liberty are the only viable paths to be competitive.
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Peddroelm has proved the Honor is more than viable on Deity. He has the record for the most VidLPs on the Deity Challenge series. You could watch them and learn how to play Honor, if you so wanted ;)
 
Fluphen Azine said:
I was reading your comments on the MP thread about speed chess and intelligence. Actually I agree with your comments on that topic more so than disagree with it. However, this statement is absurd. To say that Honor is not viable on Deity is not true and you can go Full Piety on Deity as well winning almost every game if you so choose. I am not going to say they are better than Trad/Liberty but to say that they are not viable is absurd once again just like the thread in the General Forum Section that is titled... "Liberty Does Not Work On Deity"

However, if your comment was only aimed at MP I would have to agree with you that only Trad and Liberty are viable.
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Yes, I don't think about SP much at all. I figure if a strategy is bad in MP it is equally as bad or sub-optimal in SP as well. I really can't see some one going honor or piety being able to keep up in a game where everyone else is going liberty, tradition or liberty-tradition mix.
 
consentient said:
Peddroelm has proved the Honor is more than viable on Deity. He has the record for the most VidLPs on the Deity Challenge series. You could watch them and learn how to play Honor, if you so wanted ;)
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Just because a strategy is doable does not mean it is a good strategy. If I played my friend in basketball with a broken finger and beat him that doesn't mean it's a good strategy to have a broken finger. It just means it is possible.
 
Another MP player that plays MP so much they forget that other strategies work on SP? :D

Honor is a good strategy because at a certain point you are earning so much money you can build practically limitless units. Without the Honor finisher, no Liberty/Tradition-Commerce strategy is going to be able to afford that.

So I'm sorry, but you're wrong. :)
 
consentient said:
Another MP player that plays MP so much they forget that other strategies work on SP? :D

Honor is a good strategy because at a certain point you are earning so much money you can build practically limitless units. Without the Honor finisher, no Liberty/Tradition-Commerce strategy is going to be able to afford that.

So I'm sorry, but you're wrong. :)
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I don't see an honor player being able to beat a tradition or liberty player in a duel or FFA situation. This means that honor is much inferior regardless of whether or not you can beat up on the absolutely mindless AI's with it.

If I go tradition and get up 4 massive cities while you go honor and I guess warmonger all game, it's not happening. You're going to be way behind by the time you get to me. If we are touching caps I suppose it might be viable but even in an all out war situation Liberty is better.

Honor benefits melee units while ranged units are the weapon of choice. Liberty will get a free settler, extra hammers and free worker. This means that liberty will not have to make a settler and worker leaving more hammers for units to kill the honor guy.

If you play in a 2v2 or 3v3 pro team game it is an all war situation and I guarantee you that absolutely no one ever goes honor because it just can't compete.

Being able to beat up on mindless AI's should not be the standard by which a strategy is measured against.
 
Is this thread discussing SP or MP? Cuz I thought it was about SP.

Do you even know that the majority of players can't even get MP to work???

Saying that Honor only benefits melee shows how much you know about it.

Anyway, I cba with this pointless argument. I'm outta here! I got Honor to play ;)
 
consentient said:
Is this thread discussing SP or MP? Cuz I thought it was about SP.

Do you even know that the majority of players can't even get MP to work???

Saying that Honor only benefits melee shows how much you know about it.

Anyway, I cba with this pointless argument. I'm outta here! I got Honor to play ;)
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This thread is about the difference between new players and good players. It is not mentioning whether it's about SP or MP. However MP is vastly more competitive and difficult to dominate than an AI which can not think or reason.

Yes, you can't argue with the fact that honor is vastly inferior to tradition and liberty. The argument is "pointless" because you don't have a leg to stand on. Did I say you can't beat a Diety AI with honor? No. Did I say honor is horrible and a dumpster fire in comparison to other choices? Yes. Because it is.

MP works fine, I play it all the time. I am not sure why it wouldn't work for you unless there is something wrong with your computer or internet connection. I highly recommend it. I played SP until I discovered the MP community. Then I realized the AI is completely pointless and boring in comparison to humans.
 
Honor works. It's not exactly a dumpster fire kind of thing, it has its uses, except that most of us go for a Tradition/Liberty thing, because that's the usual way.

That being said, in a pinch, I'd much rather go Tradition than Honor, yes :D
 
CraigMak said:
Yes, you can't argue with the fact that honor is vastly inferior to tradition and liberty. The argument is "pointless" because you don't have a leg to stand on. Did I say you can't beat a Diety AI with honor? No. Did I say honor is horrible and a dumpster fire in comparison to other choices? Yes. Because it is.
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:sarcasm: Wow, must be great to always know the ultimate truth about everything.

Did he say Honor is good in MP? No, all he did is argue that honor does have merits in SP. MP and SP are totally different games, in deity SP games the AI will send waves of units at you, this makes the honor finisher much stronger than in MP, even a bad honor player like myself can see some merits to this tree in SP :p
 
CraigMak said:
MP works fine, I play it all the time. I am not sure why it wouldn't work for you unless there is something wrong with your computer or internet connection.
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I'm done arguing the other points with you, but on this point you are really in need of education. Actually, 2K and Firaxis are very aware of the problems with MP. I am actually involved in a legal case with them at present over the negligence and fraud they have perpetrated by knowing that the problem exists yet continuing to sell the product as if there was nothing wrong with it.

I am happy for you that MP works fine for you. But it doesn't work for the majority of players, and there is nothing wrong with my computer or my connection. I can play other games without any problem.
 
At the risk of adding fuel to the fires, which I have no desire to do, might I observe how often the false consensus effect seems to appear in internet forums?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False-consensus_effect

I'm a psychologist, among other things, so it intrigues me to see that it is such a common phenomenon in such forums. Perhaps if we were more aware of it, it might appear less.
 
Honor/Commerce guide is very nice, good content.

But whoever plays that way on deity doesn't win, because he plays that way, he wins although he is playing that way. 90% of the time tradition is a superior choice and that is not a matter of opinion.(i hope this is correct english, if not nevermind, haha)

Btw it is also not a matter of opinion whether or not MP is broken, because it is not. It works fine, 2k is amazing at fixing things asap and there are no problems whatsoever, just gremlins inside your computer, trololol....
 
Bob Morane said:
:sarcasm: Wow, must be great to always know the ultimate truth about everything.

Did he say Honor is good in MP? No, all he did is argue that honor does have merits in SP. MP and SP are totally different games, in deity SP games the AI will send waves of units at you, this makes the honor finisher much stronger than in MP, even a bad honor player like myself can see some merits to this tree in SP :p
Click to expand...

It is not hard to know the ultimate truth about whether 1 policy tree is better than another. This is a simple question who's answer is very easy to figure out through experience and weighing the benefits of each tree.

I did not say honor is good or bad only in MP, I am saying that it is bad in comparison to Tradition and Liberty.
 
consentient said:
I'm done arguing the other points with you, but on this point you are really in need of education. Actually, 2K and Firaxis are very aware of the problems with MP. I am actually involved in a legal case with them at present over the negligence and fraud they have perpetrated by knowing that the problem exists yet continuing to sell the product as if there was nothing wrong with it.

I am happy for you that MP works fine for you. But it doesn't work for the majority of players, and there is nothing wrong with my computer or my connection. I can play other games without any problem.
Click to expand...

I would never argue that the MP of Civ 5 works perfectly but it definitely functions well enough to play a game. Sure, it crashes and freezes some times when people leave or the host drops but to say it is completely broken is false.

Would I like to see it improved? Definitely. Is it impossible to play a game? No.
 
consentient said:
But it doesn't work for the majority of players, and there is nothing wrong with my computer or my connection.
Click to expand...

Define "not work" in this context? That could mean anything from "The multiplayer button on the menu is missing" to "there's a crash every 100 turns."
 
Well I'm not about to blab every single detail of a legal case all over the internet, but rest assured that Firaxis and 2K fully know that the majority (i.e. more than 50%) of players are "unable to complete games that they start, consistently" and despite promising to fix this, that majority is still unable to do so.

Not working in my own personal case (which prompted my consumer advocacy) means I have never managed to finish a game without a disconnect.

And once again, please stop making assumptions about my setup. I am a former IT professional and am certain nothing is wrong with my setup, and I have had it confirmed by the representatives of 2K and Firaxis that they are aware of serious flaws in their program.
 
So what y'all are saying is, I made my friend spend money on this game for nothing because we can't MP properly
 
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