Suggested improvement for naval units: PATROL

One thing I grow tired of is the fact that it is difficult to use naval units defensively, to prevent an enemy amphibious landing, or offensively to attack enemy trade. This is a bit ahistorical, and it discourages construction of a navy, when in fact, a navy can be a very poweful tool of defense and economic warfare.

I suggest that in future, ships have a "patrol" order. This patrol order would sacrifice all of a ship's movement points for that turn (i.e., a ship that has moved one more or spaces cannot patrol, it must wait until the next turn.) A ship will patrol a radius equal to half its normal movement points. If, during AI movement, an enemy ship enters that radius, there would be a certain % chance that the patrolling ship would intercept the enemy and initiate naval combat (which would be resolved normally). The more ships patrolling, the higher chance of interception (and more ships would be required to intercept an enemy stack, since each ship can only attack once.) This would also make submarine wolf packs a much more threatening weapon.

Because of their low movement, I would not give the "patrol" ability to galleys and triremes.

This is conceptually similar to the manner in which air-to-air interceptions would occur under the Civilization II and Alpha Centauri systems, back when air units moved normally like other units. I still think that having naval units move one square per turn in ordinary circumstances is preferred (especially in the beginning of the game, when galleys and triremes are used more as exploratory units.)

In addition, I suggest that for blockade purposes, ships have a one square ZOC, meaning that fewer ships would be required to blockade enemy ports.

Thoughts?

I think this a good idea that could greatly enchance the importance of the navy. Maybe this can be made into a mod at least.

its kind of complicated. I think that the patrol command should tell it to go around your borders (or between two points) and hit any enemy ships that it can. It would be better to have a large navy for this kind of work.

Sebiche said:

its kind of complicated. I think that the patrol command should tell it to go around your borders (or between two points) and hit any enemy ships that it can. It would be better to have a large navy for this kind of work.

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Not sure it's more complicated than your suggestion -- in mine, the ships are permanently stationed at any location, and can be ordered to patrol deep into the oceans (or enemy waters.) I think that offers tactical flexibility worth considering. Would you propose having the ships patrol every square inch of coast -- even if it's an island? Would the ships move from their original locations?

the need for patrolling has also crossed my mind and i believe its an absolute neccessity. no need to wreck brains on how to implement this though;

Just follow warcraft III RTS type of patrolling that is to say between 2 points. 1st point being where ship is located and second point to whereever it has to go. All you need is command that says "patrol" then you pick your destination to patrol to.

If enemy is detected no need for this complicated automatic engagement scheme, the patrol should auto-cancel (just like a unit on sentry waking up) and the PLAYER decides what he has to do (engage / flee / whatever).

Arkatakor said:

the need for patrolling has also crossed my mind and i believe its an absolute neccessity. no need to wreck brains on how to implement this though;

Just follow warcraft III RTS type of patrolling that is to say between 2 points. 1st point being where ship is located and second point to whereever it has to go. All you need is command that says "patrol" then you pick your destination to patrol to.

If enemy is detected no need for this complicated automatic engagement scheme, the patrol should auto-cancel (just like a unit on sentry waking up) and the PLAYER decides what he has to do (engage / flee / whatever).

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But would this work in the Civilization game mechanic? Having the player make a decision during the AI movement (or, worse, during other players' movement in a multiplayer game,) might be too unwieldy. The point of my suggestion is to make sure that the ship(s) will act on their own without further player intervention, saving on micromanagement.

Patrolling should apply to all units. The concept was in Empire Earth II, so there's no reason why it can't be in Civilization 4.

Not a bad idea....I don't know how useful it would be for land units, though, based on what I've outlined here, as most of them only have one movement point (and I do not know how many people would want to give up potential fortification benefits for an AI-directed attack -- I probably would not in most cases, unless I was trying to intercept warrior-type barbarians with a mounted unit.) As for EE, I am reluctant to make Civ an RTS.... part of its charm is the turn-based nature.

Excellent ideas.
A stack of ships could be tasked with patrol for all-or-nothing interception, or each ship in a tile could be assigned patrol at greater risk of losing battles, but greater chance of interception.
I would also like to see a notification if "neutral" warships enter the patrol zone.

jkp1187 said:

Not a bad idea....I don't know how useful it would be for land units, though, based on what I've outlined here, as most of them only have one movement point (and I do not know how many people would want to give up potential fortification benefits for an AI-directed attack -- I probably would not in most cases, unless I was trying to intercept warrior-type barbarians with a mounted unit.) As for EE, I am reluctant to make Civ an RTS.... part of its charm is the turn-based nature.

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Oh, right.

Civilization 4 covers the time span of human history in a turn-based format.

Empire Earth 2 covers the time span of human history in a RTS format.

Khan Quest said:

Excellent ideas.
A stack of ships could be tasked with patrol for all-or-nothing interception, or each ship in a tile could be assigned patrol at greater risk of losing battles, but greater chance of interception.
I would also like to see a notification if "neutral" warships enter the patrol zone.

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Yes, I think the stack patrol is a great idea. It would definitely make it untenable to send unescorted transports in wartime. It would also make the age-old tactic of sending a fleet to launch a surprise attack, since they would be at risk from attack by enemy fleets just by moving from outside the enemy's culture borders to the coast.

heck id love to have some marines patrolling my borders

I would like to start off with this disclaimer: I have not played Civ 4; I am a victim of the game's higher video card requirement. I have played all previous Civ games and am quite familar with how their navy's worked.

jkp1187 said:

One thing I grow tired of is the fact that it is difficult to use naval units defensively, to prevent an enemy amphibious landing, or offensively to attack enemy trade. This is a bit ahistorical, and it discourages construction of a navy, when in fact, a navy can be a very poweful tool of defense and economic warfare.

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I have been quite disappointed by the incorporation of the navy in the game.

I suggest that in future, ships have a "patrol" order. This patrol order would sacrifice all of a ship's movement points for that turn (i.e., a ship that has moved one more or spaces cannot patrol, it must wait until the next turn.) A ship will patrol a radius equal to half its normal movement points. If, during AI movement, an enemy ship enters that radius, there would be a certain % chance that the patrolling ship would intercept the enemy and initiate naval combat (which would be resolved normally). The more ships patrolling, the higher chance of interception (and more ships would be required to intercept an enemy stack, since each ship can only attack once.) This would also make submarine wolf packs a much more threatening weapon.

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This % chance of attack thing has always bugged me. I did not now how interceptions in Civ 3 worked with fighters because it took control out of my hands and did not yield in attacks.

If a ship has 10 movement points and it detects an enemy, have it straight out attack the ship-none of this percentage stuff.

Because of their low movement, I would not give the "patrol" ability to galleys and triremes.

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Patrol should be given to all military ships, reguardless of range. Just because it won't be able to look far doen't mean it shouldn't be able to try.

This is conceptually similar to the manner in which air-to-air interceptions would occur under the Civilization II and Alpha Centauri systems, back when air units moved normally like other units. I still think that having naval units move one square per turn in ordinary circumstances is preferred (especially in the beginning of the game, when galleys and triremes are used more as exploratory units.)

Click to expand...

In Civ 2, air interceptions still occured on your turn (except in air transport).

In addition, I suggest that for blockade purposes, ships have a one square ZOC, meaning that fewer ships would be required to blockade enemy ports.

Thoughts?

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That seems like good way to implement it.

If a ship has 10 movement points and it detects an enemy, have it straight out attack the ship-none of this percentage stuff.

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My original thought was that the ship was 'patrolling' throughout its patrol radius, so there was only a certain % chance that it was in position to intercept an enemy ship. There might be something unbalancing/exploitable by having a 100% chance of interception the way I originally described it. That might make more sense, I suppose, if the patrol radius was reduced (maybe 1/3 movement points?)

In Civ 2, air interceptions still occured on your turn (except in air transport).

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This is not correct. If an enemy was attacking, there was a certain % chance that your fighters would intercept. (There was a pop-up box that said something to the effect of: "Fighters in London scramble to intercept enemy air mission!")


Well, I can talk about this until I'm blue in the face (fingers?) although it doesn't mean much unless we can test it. Alas, I don't think I have the necessary skills to implement. Is there anyone out there willing/able to help on this?