Rocks 2 Rockets

strategyonly · Jan 3, 2013

JosEPh_II said:
This thread needs to be Stickied.

JosEPh

You betcha

old

, DONE

JosEPh_II · Jan 3, 2013

Thanks

JosEPh

damerell · Jan 5, 2013

I suspect this problem may be present in vanilla C2C and the Advanced Espionage mod, but - I just did "Bribe City" in OCC to see what it did. To my surprise, I now have two cities. Presumably in OCC Bribe City should either be disabled or destroy the target city.

damerell · Jan 5, 2013

Also, as far as I can make out, city culture can undergo integer overflow. This is probably really a BTS bug exposed in C2C and R2R because of the greater number of turns and culture buildings.

Thunderbrd · Jan 5, 2013

damerell said:
Also, as far as I can make out, city culture can undergo integer overflow. This is probably really a BTS bug exposed in C2C and R2R because of the greater number of turns and culture buildings.

There was a fix put in place by Koshling for this a while back in C2C... if its not implemented in R2R yet should be an issue to look into for ya GodEmperor... and if THAT fix HAS been implemented, we need to try and sort it out between both mods what still is problematic.

God-Emperor · Jan 5, 2013

I have not changed anything having to do with spy missions, so I expect that "getting more than 1 city in an OCC" issue is present in C2C (and possibly other mods with Super Spies in them). Unless C2C has done something to fix it that I haven't gotten into R2R yet.

Where did you see a culture value overflow? Usual info, like game speed and such, would be nice but also what display had the problem and do you know about what the actual value should have been?

I don't see any fixes for any culture related things, based on the last 200 revision log messages (which goes back to last July).

After a bit of a break, since releasing the patch (which actually interrupted the break I was taking), I have started incorporating the C2C bugfixes into the R2R DLL again (got rev. 4064 in, which includes the early BUG startup). So at some point in the not too distant future v1 of R2R will be released. I'm hoping for about 3 weeks from now. That ought to be about enough time to check all revisions and do some testing (I may actually get around to testing viewports), make a few tweaks, and perhaps remove some more things in the FPK files that are not actually being used.

Thunderbrd · Jan 5, 2013

The spy issue is... well... an outstanding issue as far as I can tell.

The culture issue? Important to resolve for us both I think. Koshling stated overflows on max int were... well... I'll just quote him. There may be a few other areas still to address in a similar manner then.

In general (and tech cost overflows were the same issue) the problem is that several intermediary calculations multiplied by constants to avoid rounding errors on small number (e.g. - the common think of multiplying by 100 before applying percentages then dividing by 100 at the end). I changed the code in a few places to use a dynamically assigned multiplier, recording what it multiplies by at the start so it can divide by the same thing at the end. For large starting numbers it uses small multipliers (down to 1 eventually) to avoid the overflows on the intermediate calculations.

damerell · Jan 6, 2013

God-Emperor said:
I have not changed anything having to do with spy missions, so I expect that "getting more than 1 city in an OCC" issue is present in C2C (and possibly other mods with Super Spies in them). Unless C2C has done something to fix it that I haven't gotten into R2R yet.

I would suggest that Bribe City should be completely disabled in OCC, on reflection. Not only does it not work when the player does it, but of course the AI can do it to the player. In general, of course, in OCC one is expected to deal with the vulnerability of a single city, but I feel a loss like this which happens completely invisibly is a bit much - and if the AI can't do it to the player, the player shouldn't be able to do it to the AI. (Also, it's a bit OP in general - it's far, far cheaper to wipe out a rival by bribing all their cities on the same turn than it would be to conquer them, and better yet if the plan works - and there is no reason it should not - the enemy never even gets to make a nuisance of themselves by counterattacking).

Where did you see a culture value overflow? Usual info, like game speed and such, would be nice but also what display had the problem and do you know about what the actual value should have been?

I'm afraid I'm away from my games machine at present, but it's not really a display problem. The culture value should have been slightly more than 2^31. It became slightly higher than -(2^31). The game then acted "correctly" based on the new culture value; it was shown as hugely negative with 400 turns to the next level, and the city had possession only of the 8 tiles around the city and forts.

damerell · Jan 6, 2013

Another thing that's come up (and feel free to say "take this to C2C") is that in my view no diplomacy hit (or benefit) should be permanent in duration. It's all very well in ordinary Civ, but it does seem to stretch credibility that in 2500 AD, Hattie will hate you because you burned down three of her cities in 20,000 BC; in particular, it's a very poor fit with C2C/R2R's very long game to be able to make other civs into permanent enemies. Diplomacy durations are in the SDK, not XML, or I'd fiddle with it myself. I don't have a problem with the existing permanent diplomacy modifiers being of very long duration, but I do feel they ought to go away eventually.

damerell · Jan 6, 2013

damerell said:
I'm afraid I'm away from my games machine at present, but it's not really a display problem. The culture value should have been slightly more than 2^31. It became slightly higher than -(2^31).

Ahem, checking this - one-tenth those values. Culture isn't kept track of in units of 0.1 of a :culture:

, is it?

damerell · Jan 7, 2013

Clones can't Preserve Forest, but can be had well before one can build Treefarms.

Dancing Hoskuld · Jan 7, 2013

damerell said:
Clones can't Preserve Forest, but can be had well before one can build Treefarms.

A fix for this is going into C2C.

Thunderbrd · Jan 8, 2013

damerell said:
Another thing that's come up (and feel free to say "take this to C2C") is that in my view no diplomacy hit (or benefit) should be permanent in duration. It's all very well in ordinary Civ, but it does seem to stretch credibility that in 2500 AD, Hattie will hate you because you burned down three of her cities in 20,000 BC; in particular, it's a very poor fit with C2C/R2R's very long game to be able to make other civs into permanent enemies. Diplomacy durations are in the SDK, not XML, or I'd fiddle with it myself. I don't have a problem with the existing permanent diplomacy modifiers being of very long duration, but I do feel they ought to go away eventually.

I was thinking it was all done in the code too but apparently a lot of the forgiveness rates are done in the leader personality profiles in leaderheadinfos.xml. Perhaps you might find the ones you were looking to tweak there. I haven't done a thorough look through of that system structure yet so if you find what you're looking for, let me know... would be a good learning experience for both of us

I agree that in C2C/R2R some of the diplomatic penalties aren't forgiven fast enough generally.

God-Emperor · Jan 8, 2013

The durations of the various modifiers are controlled (at least mainly) by the MemoryDecays section of the leaderhead info.

Part of the problem is that they are the chance per turn of forgetting 1 instance of an event of that type. If it says 200 then the base is a 1 in 200 chance per turn. In the early game, turns represent a lot of time. (Example: Alexander has a 200 for you giving him help and a 100 for you refusing to help.) The realistic diplomacy option and the ruthless AI game option both modify the chance of forgetting (the "realistic" makes them forget faster, "ruthless" slower).

As for the rest of the problem: There are apparently a few defaults set, but only for the ones Afforess added. Other than those, the ones that are not specified for a specific leaderhead default to 0 and value which is 0 (or less) means "never forget". So Alexander, who has no decay value set for MEMORY_DECLARED_WAR will never forget you declared war on him. I don't think any of them have a value set for this, or some of the others - like MEMORY_DECLARED_WAR_ON_FRIEND and MEMORY_RAZED_CITY. Well, I only looked at the main leaderhead file - the modular ones could specify these values (but probably don't).

Thunderbrd · Jan 8, 2013

woah... that's a fairly large area that requires some serious auditing then. Sheesh - a bit of a mess huh?

damerell · Jan 8, 2013

Dancing Hoskuld said:
A fix for this is going into C2C.

Glee. For the time being I WB-ed in some Modern Workers and deleted a like number of Clones, which I think is fair enough.

Also, although I think God-Emperor may be aware of this, the Transhuman tech tree shows the signs of recent surgery quite badly. There are (and I fear I don't have chapter and verse, sorry) quite a few dead-end techs which also give nothing at all - no unit, no building, no civics, no nothing.

strategyonly · Jan 8, 2013

Can you PLEASE expand on the Leaderhead stuff please, i am going to add in C2C, 10 Civs to on upwards the # of leaderheads, and this is a major factor then i need to know about, thx.

God-Emperor · Jan 9, 2013

strategyonly said:
Can you PLEASE expand on the Leaderhead stuff please, i am going to add in C2C, 10 Civs to on upwards the # of leaderheads, and this is a major factor then i need to know about, thx.

If you look in CIV4MemoryInfos.xml you will see that there are 42 different memory types defined (they are also hardcoded in the DLL - you cant just change them in that XML file, in case you were wondering).

If you look in the CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml for any leader you will find a section whcih looks like this:

Code:

			<MemoryDecays>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_GIVE_HELP</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>200</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_REFUSED_HELP</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_ACCEPT_DEMAND</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>50</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_REJECTED_DEMAND</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>150</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_ACCEPTED_RELIGION</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_DENIED_RELIGION</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>50</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_ACCEPTED_CIVIC</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_DENIED_CIVIC</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>50</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_ACCEPTED_JOIN_WAR</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>150</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_DENIED_JOIN_WAR</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_ACCEPTED_STOP_TRADING</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_DENIED_STOP_TRADING</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>50</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_STOPPED_TRADING_RECENT</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>30</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_MADE_DEMAND_RECENT</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>20</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_CANCELLED_OPEN_BORDERS</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>10</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_TRADED_TECH_TO_US</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_RECEIVED_TECH_FROM_ANY</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>20</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_VOTED_AGAINST_US</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>10</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_VOTED_FOR_US</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>10</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_EVENT_GOOD_TO_US</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>50</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_EVENT_BAD_TO_US</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>50</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
				<MemoryDecay>
					<MemoryType>MEMORY_INQUISITION</MemoryType>
					<iMemoryRand>25</iMemoryRand>
				</MemoryDecay>
			</MemoryDecays>

That is the one for Alexander. If you count the MemoryDecay entries you will find that there are only 22 of them. It looks like all of the leaders in that file have 22 defined, although I suppose they might not all be the same 22. (I used the "count" function in the search dialog in Notepad++ to count how many "MemoryDecays" (the plural wrapper around that section) there are and multiplied that by 22, I then did the same check to find out how many "MemoryDecay" entries there are and it was that same number: 1364.)

So that means that each leader in CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml has 20 memory types that never decay because a decay value is not specified. If you do something that triggers one of those types of attitude change (good or bad) the leader will never forget it.

Well, there might be some that are specifically handled outside the normal mechanism, which checks the specified decay chance once per turn as that player's turn is processed. I didn't search the DLL's code for every reference to "MEMORY_" to see if any were specially handled elsewhere. Based on playing seeing things happen while playing, I suspect that when someone becomes a vassal some of the memory types might be zeroed. I seem to recall seeing some of the attitude modifiers go away when that happens.

God-Emperor · Jan 9, 2013

damerell said:
Also, although I think God-Emperor may be aware of this, the Transhuman tech tree shows the signs of recent surgery quite badly. There are (and I fear I don't have chapter and verse, sorry) quite a few dead-end techs which also give nothing at all - no unit, no building, no civics, no nothing.

If you think there are a lot of empty techs in Transhuman in R2R, you should look at C2C. I think I got rid of well over half the empty techs. (I just checked my notes: in one of the last trimming sessions I removed 15, and that was just the last session where I was doing that specific thing - there was 1 later tech trimming session which removed 1 from each ancient, classical, and industrial era and left me with 500 techs. That seemed like a good number.)

In R2R there are 15 techs in the Transhuman era that do not actually do anything themselves. There are also several that only give a small research boost to a lab type building or two.

I checked all of the "empty" techs: none are dead ends. All of the empty techs are prereqs for at least one other tech (6 of them are prereqs for exactly 1 other), one is a prereq for 7 other techs (organic photonics).

I was pretty sure this was the case since I specifically trimmed out all of the techs that did nothing, and some of the ones that did nothing but act as a prereq. It was possible that some dead-end tech that used to do something with one or more buildings didn't anymore since the vast majority of my building trimming happened after I pruned the tech tree, but that is not the case.

There are some techs in there that have a lot piled up on them. I might spread some of that stuff around a little to give a few of the empty techs something to do, if anything seems appropriate.

And, of course, the Ion Propulsion tech, which is in the modern era, is still positioned way out around the end of the Transhuman era. I'll be moving that back into a more suitable column.

damerell · Jan 10, 2013

God-Emperor said:
I checked all of the "empty" techs: none are dead ends.

Planetary Exploration is the first empty dead-end tech I could find, refreshing my memory now. I believe there are more.

... oh, while I'm here; the beaker value of Future Tech 1, I suspect, reflects its position at the end of a larger tech tree.

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