Better Honor

evilcat said:

And... will that be a bonus at all? Aqueduct and cultural buildings are always good in any city. But XP buildings not. If the city is mostly guild hub, or university farm with mostly jungle and few hammers that would be waste. Not every city need to be unit manufacture, there is some space for specializacion. And already existing discount is much better for that, since it allows to specializa in this few cities.

Better idea would to give a defensive building, but then again it is better as production discount, since not always you need this defensive building asap, and having free gone waste when city will not see fight for another 50 turns would be a waste.

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I agree. Free aqueducts and monuments are huge boosts that act on their own. +% mods to buildings allows for more flexibility and more options to stack (rome ua, workshop/forge/ longhouse.) i feel like quicker defensive/military buildings would be helpful.

Still, i think there should be a policy buffing great generals. Something like a negative modifier to unhappiness when garrisoned.

One thing we have to keep in mind is honors natural synergy with autocracy. The problem, however, is getting the tree competitive with the others.

I was playing with new version:

HonorOpener:no changes
WarriorCode : FreeGeneral (and bonus) + adjecent bonus.
MilitaryTradicion (warrior code): XP bonus, 4 units free to maintaine.
Discipline. Walls, Castle, Arsenal, Military Base build in 50% time; 15% bonus to land units
MilitaryCaste (discipline) (+1+2 if garrison in city)
ProffesionalArmy (reqDiscipline): Barracks, Armory, Military Academy 50%time. and 50% discount on upgrading units.
Finisher: Gold from killz. Walls and Castle gives +1 each.

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Which is probably OP, since it gives hammers, gold and happiness... just as tradicion does. But is at least fun to play. It also dosnt give growth or science, so maybe that's fair. Also culture is rather questionable.

It would be quite cool to code Great General giving bonus when in city (as governator), but also harder.

z284pwr said:

How about making it similar to the 4 free culture beings from Tradition? Then again waiting and hitting 3-4 free Military Academy is going to have a few cities bumping out 45XP, hit that with Total War in Autocracy and it's some killer military units to start.

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By then, you have enough production to build a MA in 3 turns, or even less if you have full Honor. Free barracks is MUCH more valuable early game, when building them delays your actual units, and you don't have the gold to maintain too many.

Vidszhite said:

By then, you have enough production to build a MA in 3 turns, or even less if you have full Honor. Free barracks is MUCH more valuable early game, when building them delays your actual units, and you don't have the gold to maintain too many.

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Free barracks also have advantage that with good timing that opens way to Heroic Epic when we are still small. Still i think that production discout is very good, since having full line in 2 cities and one with brandenburg gates and HE seems to be superior, even more if we get to Autocracy, or use some commerce combo to just buy a lot high experience units from single city.

I like the thought of honors opener, it does give a lot of things that can be important like sight, combat advantage against barbs, and culture in small occasional bursts. But I agree that it doesn't compete, and the entire tree is lackluster.

My problem with it is that killing barbs is hard work, warriors need to spend a lot of time healing, time that could be spent killing or exploring. What if honor spawned 2-4 units that are essentially warriors with promotion for +33% vs barbs, gains culture from all kills, no cost, heals an additional 3 per turn. that way you would actually have a defense unit to keep the rediculously frequest spawns out of your yard and enough offense for whatever gambit you want to take on. and if you lose the unit its like losing a city with a free tradition monument.

Also i never liked the next to a melee policy, we should be able to army as we please.

Maybe there could be a bonus like what Immortals get, double healing for melee units or something. That way it provides a major benefit to combat, but also helps you snuff out encampments quicker during peacetime.

War promotes science. Think about it... historically speaking it has almost always been the society with the technological advantage that wins. This isn't always true, but typically it is.

The Honor opener should provide culture for killing barbarians and +1 Science per unit benefiting from a great general or great admiral in enemy lands.

In other words if I'm invading egypt and I have five units that are getting the great general bonus then I'd get +5 science per turn.

Like most homebrew ideas, the OP overcompensates.

Also, there is an Ideas & Suggestions forum for this.

Honor is not that bad, but it's miles away tradition. The 4 unit maintenance free is the push you need to actually hold an army on the ancient and classical eras where gold was nerfed so badly. That, removing the military caste to carrison units and add it to buildings, and an extra happiness boost, would do the trick and would make honor a viable first branch. I find honor quite useful if you pick the opener early for some field dominion, against barbs and for CS quests, but end god-tradition first.

BTW I would nerf also tradition a bit, free buildings for four cities is just too much, I would lower it to 3 cities. Rarely you would make more than 4-5 cities in standard maps with liberty, I find 4 cities to be in the middle of tradition and liberty.

And all the late policies, you will get into industrial and ideologies before finishing two branches, too bad. Policies should go a bit faster.

This is the 986757878 post about honor, I think the policies thing should be rebalanced.

I don't think tradition needs nerfing, I just think the other three openers need to be buffed a little.

There are a few ways Liberty could be slightly buffed. Maybe republic could get +2 hammers instead of just +1, or instead of 10% production for buildings instead of just 5. Maybe Meritocracy should give 75-85% of the normal unhappiness from number of cities in addition to its normal effects. The free great person (like all free GP) shouldn't increase tech cost.

Honor, as lots of other people have said, should give more happiness. I think the answers already provided are pretty apt.

Piety should in my opinion give some sort of growth bonus to make the choice of it over Tradition that little bit less painful. I think Theocracy could do with a buff as it's pretty underwhelming in its current state. In cities with your religion, maybe +10% growth? 10% of food carried over? +2 food? Something along those lines that isn't as good as tradition but makes the gap less distinct.

I dont think that tradicion need nerfs, it works now, people like it, better not mess with it. Simply there is too much risk that when nerfing tradicion something will go bad.

Liberty could have this great person totally free, not increasing counter. And hapiness bonus could be more like 10% (just as forbiden palace).

And current Honor dosnt give early gold, and late hapiness. And you cant run around hunting barbs if you have no gold to maintaine units. And you cant grow empire without hapiness, 1 smile for city is very low. Of course you can mix it with other tree, but then you can just skip Honor all together.

With Piety is problem that it is not that helpful in founding religion. Lucky location is.

So yes, not need to nerf Tradicion + Rationalism, just buff everything else.

I've also been playing around with ideas for a rearranged and revamped honor tree. Feels like I'm cramming a lot of stuff into some of these policies, but they probably need it. Here's what I came up with:

Opener: +15 experience for military units trained in the capital. Gain culture for each barbarian killed, and get notifications when barbarian camps spawn in revealed territory.

Level 1
Warrior Code: A great general appears, and great generals are earned 25% faster. +1 happiness and +2 culture for each great general that has been born in the empire.
Discipline: +15% combat strength and +15% defense against ranged attacks for melee units which have another military unit in an adjacent tile
Professional Army: Gold cost of upgrading military units reduced by 33%. 4 units are maintenance free.

Level 2
Military Caste (requires Warrior Code): +1 happiness for each conquered city in the empire. When capturing a city, plunder its last 10 turns worth of culture output.
Military Tradition (requires Professional Army): Military units gain 50% more experience from combat.

Finisher: Gain gold for each enemy unit killed. Courthouses construct 50% faster and do not cost gold maintenance.

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Tree structure: Flatten it a bit, to create more flexibility in policy order.
Opener: Give it something with more longevity than barbarian-related bonuses, so it can retain some usefulness after they're all dead.
Discipline: Even the odds between ranged and melee units a bit.
Happiness/Culture: Move them to great generals and city conquest instead of garrisons, reward having your units actively fight and conquer rather than sitting in cities.
Finisher Buff: If you're dedicated enough to war to fill the whole tree, you could probably use some help integrating conquered cities into the empire. The courthouse bonus clashes with Order's Iron Curtain tenet, but that tenet comes too late anyway and could stand to be changed.

Imho about Honor as Policy tree is selfdestructive if taken as your only tree in ancient era.

IT doesn't help foster development of your empire whatsoever, it just helps you militarily and that's it. I had several bad end games in civ 5 vanilla cuz I took honor only.

Honor is one of the several policy trees that will work very great when developed with another policy tree.

My preferred way is Tradition+Honor and it works great. I fill out both Tradition and Honor together completely before moving onto other trees barring exceptions.

I haven't tried out Liberty+Honor yet.

I have a feeling that Piety tree is just like Honor. Horrible on it's own but great when complemented by another tree.

This is likely firaxis's intention. Why would they ignore Warrior caste and Oligarchy combo for such a long time xD

You cant just pick every branch. Since before you hit idology time you may hope for 2 branches.
I do not question Tradicion, it is great in every aspect, even as dip. Faster border growth helps with luxes, and Aristocracy is decent smile source. I just dont get why to spoil good tradicion with Honor, delaying aqueducts. And once finished with Tradicion Honor opener is really underwhelming. In the same time you can just go with Patronage Consulates for all various boni. And once you hit renessanse just rationalism.

IMHO both Piety and Honor should be view as branches instead of tradicion not in addition. Since with ideaology you can hope for just 2 branches (or mix of these) and having just a choice of Tradicion vs Liberty is boring very fast.

It sounds odd, but Liberty is good for warmongels. You have smile per city without need of garrison, and discount for next policies. And as warmongel you probably have more cities.

My idea
Opener: same.
Left:
1.Companions: combat strength for units which have another military unit in an adjacent tile
2.Blood brothers: adjacent units get experience from battle
Right:
1.Pledge of loyalty: Gains free general. Unit in tile with general always fight at full strength.
2.Retirement: Military units that fought once can instantly upgrade luxury that adjacent or in city borders
3.Legacy: Works like reformation belief but isn't unique
Legacy of invaders: Free upkeep for units when they are in enemy territory
Legacy of defenders: Garrison units grant +1 happiness for every 3 citizens in city, barbarians cant pillage in city borders with garrison
Legacy of protectors: Free upkeep for military units in borders of allied city states. Half cost on territory of friendly civilization.

I'm not sure what changes would be the most balanced overall to Honor in light of the new dynamics that exist within BNW, but here are a few of my thoughts.

Opener - OK. I found the opener pretty balanced and the + against barbarians is a great way to keep pace with builder centric Civ's. The only change I could recommend would be to make the + bonus work against everybody so when you run out of barbarians it will work against CS's and Civ's alike.

Discipline - Fine. The only buff I can think of is to add a small stacking modifier, something like +5%, for every extra adjacent unit.

Military Caste - OK. I would increase the happiness buff from 1 to 2 so it can keep pace with the happiness buffs that Liberty/Tradition can offer. This might be broken though in a super wide empire but not sure on the math. Keep the culture the same.

Military Tradition - Fine, only thing I can think of is to give new units +15xp. Maybe even limit that to units made in the capital.

Professional Army - Fine.

Warrior Code - Fine. Maybe change it so the +% production modifier applies to all units, not just melee. Again, might be broken, or possibly thematically inappropriate.

Finisher - Fine.

I recently experimenting how much i can cut of bonuses and still be there.

My last version is:

HonorOpener:no changes
WarriorCode : FreeGeneral (and bonus) + adjecent bonus.
MilitaryTradicion (warrior code): XP bonus,. and 33% discount on upgrading units.
Discipline. 15% bonus to land
MilitaryCaste (discipline) (+1+2 if garrison in city)
ProffesionalArmy (reqDiscipline): Barracks, Armory, Military Academy 50%time. 4 units free to maintaine
Finisher: Gold from killz. Walls give 1 . And courthouse cost no maintenece.

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Basicly the play is that i start with right side (discipline and stuff) to build background, and then start some warmongering. However this warmongering needs to be slow.

The opener is ok, since it is only here to catapult us to Military Caste, and military caste is better than liberty opener so it is fair. After that if Honor have a weakness of low culture output thats fine.
The most important for Honor is gold (enough to keep warmachine running) and hapiness. So this 2 things i focus on. 2 smiles per city from classic is ok. After that you can search for some other smile source like religion, eristocracy, patronage, or even exploration.

As for production bonus it is enought if it applies to all land units.

It would be sort of interesting if one of the Honor nodes granted you a luxury resource for 10 turns after you pillaged it from someone else. That way, the pillaged resources of the people you attack could serve as a way to isolate you from happiness issues, but there is some strategy to it, especially early in the game.