sirdanilot
BBcode owns in sigs!
I wonder, what makes them think that... 
Team Free Embassy
- Thread starter General_W
- Start date
Well the turn before we finished SoZ we were building TGL in The Silo. Then zyxy hit for the cycleI wonder, what makes them think that...
and switched everything around. Maybe they don't know that you can prebuild a wonder with a Palace
At least they seem to lack some fantasy...
donsig
Low level intermediary
Ahh, let them think what they want about changing city names. I had enough of that arguement last game. 
I don't think we have to worry about telling FREE about the great lighthouse - we were building it to keep us all safe and can just tell them that.
The map trade is the key thing here. Is it in our best interest to let FREE know what we know? They may already have figured it out and if they are just as much of a target for BABE as we are then we should help them prepare as much as possible. So if they crack the map too it would be good.
I don't think we have to worry about telling FREE about the great lighthouse - we were building it to keep us all safe and can just tell them that.
The map trade is the key thing here. Is it in our best interest to let FREE know what we know? They may already have figured it out and if they are just as much of a target for BABE as we are then we should help them prepare as much as possible. So if they crack the map too it would be good.
I think the name change came from them seeing The Silo build the GLib previously, and they must have thought it was our prebuild. We cannot have built TGL in The Silo, as it's not coastal.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Ok – lot to tackle here!
On Trading Maps: I think we should probably trade maps with FREE – but I'd like to try our territory map for their world map to start with. It may be perceived as cagey… but we really want to be the ones to settle that big Island between our peoples… and if we show them it's there, it could cause tension. As donsig noted, this kind seems like trying to sign a prenuptial agreement before our "marriage" – but I really don't want to help FREE get even more cities and land.
I think trading our TM for their WM is pretty close to the going consensus here anyway.
On Splitting Wonders: Since they brought it up, I do think it's a good idea to draft an agreement on who gets first-dibs on which wonder. It's one less thing to cause contention in our alliance. I think we can attempt a real coup here by offering to give FREE almost all of the wonders they identified as important, while giving us a bunch of the wonders they didn't even mention (Copernicus, Newton, Sistine… basically all the ones we want anyway!) – it's possible they just might go for that. It's worth a try, and if they cry foul, we can always go back and try to make the list more fair.
Only downside to us trying to grab both Copernicus and Newton is that we might have to slide Knights Templar over to FREE's side to make things balance. Really though, I think that's ok because we got the SoZ. Still, I'm going to keep it on our side to start with.
On Selling Tech to Saber: Given the quick reply we just got from Saber, we must push FREE for approval of our proposal to sell Construction for 216 gold with non-trading clauses. We'll need to offer FREE 108 gold out of that, obviously.
On Explaining the SoZ: I agree we should make a comment about it being for peaceful purposes… but let's just keep our mouths shut about the Great Lighthouse. As has been mentioned here, they should be able to figure it out on their own, but if not – let them be confused. There's really no benefit to explaining things, but there are risks… we might look patronizing, or like we're nervously trying to hide something… etc. FREE doesn't seem upset about it – so just a simple reiteration of our peaceful intent should be plenty.
So, with that… here's my proposal for a response… version 1!
How's that?
The sooner we can send something, the better, imo.
On Trading Maps: I think we should probably trade maps with FREE – but I'd like to try our territory map for their world map to start with. It may be perceived as cagey… but we really want to be the ones to settle that big Island between our peoples… and if we show them it's there, it could cause tension. As donsig noted, this kind seems like trying to sign a prenuptial agreement before our "marriage" – but I really don't want to help FREE get even more cities and land.
I think trading our TM for their WM is pretty close to the going consensus here anyway.
On Splitting Wonders: Since they brought it up, I do think it's a good idea to draft an agreement on who gets first-dibs on which wonder. It's one less thing to cause contention in our alliance. I think we can attempt a real coup here by offering to give FREE almost all of the wonders they identified as important, while giving us a bunch of the wonders they didn't even mention (Copernicus, Newton, Sistine… basically all the ones we want anyway!) – it's possible they just might go for that. It's worth a try, and if they cry foul, we can always go back and try to make the list more fair.
Only downside to us trying to grab both Copernicus and Newton is that we might have to slide Knights Templar over to FREE's side to make things balance. Really though, I think that's ok because we got the SoZ. Still, I'm going to keep it on our side to start with.
On Selling Tech to Saber: Given the quick reply we just got from Saber, we must push FREE for approval of our proposal to sell Construction for 216 gold with non-trading clauses. We'll need to offer FREE 108 gold out of that, obviously.
On Explaining the SoZ: I agree we should make a comment about it being for peaceful purposes… but let's just keep our mouths shut about the Great Lighthouse. As has been mentioned here, they should be able to figure it out on their own, but if not – let them be confused. There's really no benefit to explaining things, but there are risks… we might look patronizing, or like we're nervously trying to hide something… etc. FREE doesn't seem upset about it – so just a simple reiteration of our peaceful intent should be plenty.
So, with that… here's my proposal for a response… version 1!
Spoiler :
How's that?
The sooner we can send something, the better, imo.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
Do we tell them we have information that leads us to believe we will meet Babe next turn?
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
I'm ok with that letter.
Were I FREE, I would choke on that division of wonders, but then, I'm not free.
Were I FREE, I would choke on that division of wonders, but then, I'm not free.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
We have to tell FREE when we meet BABE… but I don't see the value in weighing down this letter even further with that information?
Plus, we don't necessarily want to reveal how warm our relationship is with Saber.
Maybe if they're trying to give us a raw deal on the MAAP II, we may want to threaten to go with Saber instead… but in the meantime, I think it's best of us if we keep that quiet.
EDIT: @ A.T. - no kidding. It's totally unfair... but then, that's what they asked for in their letter!
Plus, we don't necessarily want to reveal how warm our relationship is with Saber.
Maybe if they're trying to give us a raw deal on the MAAP II, we may want to threaten to go with Saber instead… but in the meantime, I think it's best of us if we keep that quiet.
EDIT: @ A.T. - no kidding. It's totally unfair... but then, that's what they asked for in their letter!
sirdanilot
BBcode owns in sigs!
The suggested wonder division is so unfair FREE will probably laugh at it too much to get angry at us.
edit: Maybe it's just me, but either JS Bach's cathedral was removed in c3c or you forgot to include that in the proposal. If it still exists, you should at it to free's side to make the unfairness a little bit less obvious...
edit: Maybe it's just me, but either JS Bach's cathedral was removed in c3c or you forgot to include that in the proposal. If it still exists, you should at it to free's side to make the unfairness a little bit less obvious...
sirdanilot
BBcode owns in sigs!
I actually think we should keep it unfair from now, and start making it reasonably fair when they reply about it. After all, they started it. But still it should include js bachs cathedral on frees side...
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Ok – good catch on JS Bach… another wonder I don't usually build. I'll add that to FREE's side.
Now, it's not clear to me if everyone understands that I'm not just trying to go crazy with that wonder division. Yes, it's grossly unfair. BUT – it was FREE who named the four wonders they viewed as most valuable for the Middle Ages. We're giving them three of the four. Maybe they'll think it's a great deal.
Of course, it's possible they were spinning us, and thinking about trying to grab Copernicus and Netwtons both for themselves… in which case we're just calling their bluff.
The only other possibility is that they just somehow forgot to mention Newton and Copernicus, which is hard to believe, but possible. If they're playing that sloppy, then maybe our proposal will just slide through!
I also kind of wonder if they did mention another wonder and deleted it, as they say "four wonders" then "the five in contention"
No matter what the case is, I still think it's worth a shot, and if they get upset, we'll be happy to change the division… as noted in my proposed letter.
Here's version 1.2
I'd like to urge The Council to send this letter (or a modified form of it) by the end of today, and to offer our Territory Map to FREE with the next save.
Now, it's not clear to me if everyone understands that I'm not just trying to go crazy with that wonder division. Yes, it's grossly unfair. BUT – it was FREE who named the four wonders they viewed as most valuable for the Middle Ages. We're giving them three of the four. Maybe they'll think it's a great deal.
Spoiler FREE's letter :
Of course, it's possible they were spinning us, and thinking about trying to grab Copernicus and Netwtons both for themselves… in which case we're just calling their bluff.
The only other possibility is that they just somehow forgot to mention Newton and Copernicus, which is hard to believe, but possible. If they're playing that sloppy, then maybe our proposal will just slide through!
I also kind of wonder if they did mention another wonder and deleted it, as they say "four wonders" then "the five in contention"
No matter what the case is, I still think it's worth a shot, and if they get upset, we'll be happy to change the division… as noted in my proposed letter.
Here's version 1.2
Spoiler :
I'd like to urge The Council to send this letter (or a modified form of it) by the end of today, and to offer our Territory Map to FREE with the next save.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
Am good with sending this.
Looks great to me. 
Good letter. Nice paragraph on the SoZ
Don't want to be greedy, but... Do we have to give them 50%?
Isn't there a margin for the trader? We risked our brave Chamsuri (r.i.p.), we got the contact, we researched that tech.
I'd think 2:1 would be more appropriate: 72 for them, 144 for us.
I just wonder if I would also think so if they were trading with someone...
Okay, 36 gold is not worth an argument that would delay that important letter by a single turn. So it's okay with me.
But at least I made my point clear
Don't want to be greedy, but... Do we have to give them 50%?
Isn't there a margin for the trader? We risked our brave Chamsuri (r.i.p.), we got the contact, we researched that tech.
I'd think 2:1 would be more appropriate: 72 for them, 144 for us.
I just wonder if I would also think so if they were trading with someone...
Okay, 36 gold is not worth an argument that would delay that important letter by a single turn. So it's okay with me.
But at least I made my point clear
zyxy
Warmongering Fool
Never to late to throw a spanner in the wheel...
I would really not trade maps. Why do we want their map? IMO we don't need it, and I would hate for our map to fall in the wrong hands. Cities that cannot be seen on a map cannot be spied upon... as long as nobody has our map info, we can at least keep our noncoastal cities invisible until airplanes.
In their letter, FREE mentioned five wonders and then listed four... Ah, I see General_W noticed this too...
Did we consider which wonders we would need for our GA?
IMO, KT is rather useless, and of course we're not going to build 5 wonders each...
Also, I don't think we need to rush this. What's the hurry, these things can be decided later. The important issue is the tech division, and the potential trade with SABER. (And I agree with Paul that FREE is realyl getting sweet deals). Let them decide on that first.
I would really not trade maps. Why do we want their map? IMO we don't need it, and I would hate for our map to fall in the wrong hands. Cities that cannot be seen on a map cannot be spied upon... as long as nobody has our map info, we can at least keep our noncoastal cities invisible until airplanes.
In their letter, FREE mentioned five wonders and then listed four... Ah, I see General_W noticed this too...
Did we consider which wonders we would need for our GA?
IMO, KT is rather useless, and of course we're not going to build 5 wonders each...
Also, I don't think we need to rush this. What's the hurry, these things can be decided later. The important issue is the tech division, and the potential trade with SABER. (And I agree with Paul that FREE is realyl getting sweet deals). Let them decide on that first.
cubsfan6506
Got u
Also the two scientific wonders i believe are in there side of the tree perhaps they will try to keep us in the dark for a little bit while they build.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I agree that it would be nice to keep more of the gold from the trade with Saber to ourselves – but that only leaves us 2 options… mislead (read: lie to) FREE about what we sold the tech for… or try to convince FREE that we deserve a 2:1 ratio of gold.
I think trying to convince FREE to agree to a 2:1 gold split is a very bad idea. Even if we were the ones to research Construction, it was done in the framework of trading beaker-for-beaker with FREE, making each tech belong to both of us… or put another way, they did ½ of the research on everything. I think that idea just spoils our relationship for a pretty small gain.
That said, I could be talked into leading FREE to believe that we're getting less gold from Saber than we are… by using a generous definition of the word "split" ("split: Verb, both parties get some of the whole, not necessarily in equal amounts" )
I've adjusted that language below… see what you think
RE: Wonders, I agree that neither team is likely to build all 5 wonders on their side, but including them all makes it look better, imho, by making our grab for Cop and Newt a little bit less obvious.
RE: Trading Maps – I see what you're saying – but getting FREE's map will help us determine if there's an extra sea lane between us and BABE. Finding this out asap is of tremendous value in my opinion. More important than protecting against potential spying. I seriously doubt we'll be going to war with FREE before airplanes… or ever.
Also, I've added language to this letter making it clear that they can't trade our map without our approval. (by banning any future "world map" trades without our consent.)
That make you feel any better?
Re: Hurrying this – if we split this out into different letters, not only does it take longer, but FREE will give that much more scrutiny to each point. Given how FREE appears to be running their diplomacy (sloppy) I think there's real value in sending them a good burst of things, many of which they'll happily agree to, along with a few things that they might have a problem with if they had more time to think about it.
So far, you're the only holdout, but since you're the First Councilor, I really hope we can get your buy-in before anything is sent!
What do you say?
Version 1.4
I think trying to convince FREE to agree to a 2:1 gold split is a very bad idea. Even if we were the ones to research Construction, it was done in the framework of trading beaker-for-beaker with FREE, making each tech belong to both of us… or put another way, they did ½ of the research on everything. I think that idea just spoils our relationship for a pretty small gain.
That said, I could be talked into leading FREE to believe that we're getting less gold from Saber than we are… by using a generous definition of the word "split" ("split: Verb, both parties get some of the whole, not necessarily in equal amounts" )
I've adjusted that language below… see what you think
RE: Wonders, I agree that neither team is likely to build all 5 wonders on their side, but including them all makes it look better, imho, by making our grab for Cop and Newt a little bit less obvious.
RE: Trading Maps – I see what you're saying – but getting FREE's map will help us determine if there's an extra sea lane between us and BABE. Finding this out asap is of tremendous value in my opinion. More important than protecting against potential spying. I seriously doubt we'll be going to war with FREE before airplanes… or ever.
Also, I've added language to this letter making it clear that they can't trade our map without our approval. (by banning any future "world map" trades without our consent.)
That make you feel any better?
Re: Hurrying this – if we split this out into different letters, not only does it take longer, but FREE will give that much more scrutiny to each point. Given how FREE appears to be running their diplomacy (sloppy) I think there's real value in sending them a good burst of things, many of which they'll happily agree to, along with a few things that they might have a problem with if they had more time to think about it.
So far, you're the only holdout, but since you're the First Councilor, I really hope we can get your buy-in before anything is sent!
What do you say?
Version 1.4
Spoiler :
cubsfan6506
Got u
THis seems to be slightly sloppy wording. It should be something along the lines of after we "split it" you will get 75 gold.
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