Final Frontier - the next space 4X?

I just recently had a look at the added content in BtS, and came across the Final Frontier mod. I was immediately hooked. Let me start by saying how impressed I am, very very nice work!

I've been a fan of space-based 4X games for a long time, way back since the first MOO, but lately I've been somewhat disillusioned with the whole development in the genre. MOO3 was a huge letdown despite having lots of good ideas, GalCiv (I and II) was a step in the right direction, but didn't have that immediate feeling of connection, and the incredible amounts of MMing that could (had to?) be put down in order to best the game was tedious to say the least. So it's been a while since I played a really good space 4X game, MOO2 was the latest I was really addicted to.

Into this void comes Final Frontier, sneaking in through the back entrance without too much fanfare. Is it the next great space 4X game to fill the void? No, not quite. But it definitely has the potential to be. The basics of the game are just wonderful. I love how star systems with colonies are handled, with per-planet population limits, per-planet and per-system improvements, influence to reach out to outer planets. The background setting is well thought-out, and while a bit shallow to be fully immersive there's definitely great potential. The graphics are simply great (though I would ask for a bit more opacity in the holograph images).

But to completely fill the role of a great space 4X, there's simply too little content, after playing a while it becomes rather obvious that it really is a mod and not a full game. The tech tree is small, and the correlation between a tech and what it enables is far from obvious. The ships available are nice, though there are a bit few options IMO. The available civs are somewhat few for a full game (and why are there no female leaders?). The pedia could be fleshed out more. And there are some features that don't feel quite 100% perfect, for instance the handling of warp lanes make them feel (IMHO) a bit too much like the roads they are derived from (though a very nice touch given that the roads mechanic was what you had to work with).

So, the point I'm trying to get at is, Final Frontier is definitely the best space 4X game I've seen in a long while. But it's not quite there. I can say for certain though that if some more effort was put into it, to take it that extra mile needed, I would gladly buy a "Civ IV: Final Frontier" expansion pack, or for that matter a "Jon Shafer's Final Frontier" standalone game. What are the chances of that happening?

I would like to see a star trek mod for it.

I agree. Although I did like Moo3 - it just took about 2 years of fan-made mods before the game was playable. Once you had those mods though, it was great. (Which I guess is similar to what you were saying - it had some great ideas, which fans were able to mold into a great game; but out of the box it was incredibly disappointing.)

I would love to see more work put into FF. I mean, I can tell there's been a ton of work put into it already, and I'm very impressed with it, but if Firaxis actually put a *team* on it, I think it could be a great game all on its own. Of course, to put a team on it, there would have to be the potential to make money on it, and I, for one, agree with you that I would pay for a Final Frontier II expansion. FF is kind of what I expected when I originally bought Alpha Centauri back in the day (not that it was advertised as a space 4x, just that I bought it with that misconception in mind).

If Jon Shafer wanted to start a team and a mod-forum for FF, I would volunteer what skills I have as a former programmer and former occasional modder of Moo3 and Civ I with no Civ 4 modding experience (although not until Jan 1 - busy holiday season at work!). I have a feeling there would be quite a few others, probably with more experience and more vigor, that would be willing to jump on board if it ever happened.

Straight from MoO2 to Final Frontier? Ever heard about Galactic Civilizations 2?

I'm pretty sure that Jon is already on a game team with mod forums available to them...

MMV said:

I'm pretty sure that Jon is already on a game team with mod forums available to them...

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Well, that's my mistake then, I thought FF was the work of one person. Though, obviously it seems like a lot of additional stuff, especially graphics, went into it for one person to have done it.

As far as a mod-forum, I just meant a forum like those that exist for user-made mods like FFH, Rhye's, and others. If the mod were to go into a sort of permanent development mode like those ones are, it would be useful to have its own forum for discussing the mod among users like us. Not that it wouldn't be useful for strategy discussion anyway, as is.

I guess I was thinking that Jon was like Kael (and his team of diligent modders whose names I do not know, though I know it's not just Kael behind FFH) - a user who made a mod which was then incorporated into BTS. If he's actually a part of Firaxis, then I suppose that's different, but in that case if someone *else* wanted to create a team to develop "Final Frontier PLUS" or something, I think that would still be a worthwhile endeavor. I don't pretend to be up to the task of heading such a thing, but I'd be a willing footsoldier in the cause if it did happen.

Luckmann said:

Straight from MoO2 to Final Frontier? Ever heard about Galactic Civilizations 2?

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Personally, GalCiv I was a little disappointing after the long wait between paying for it and having an actual game to play. It had some great concepts, and it was nice how gameplay overrode things like graphics and flash that seem so important in current gen games, but all-in-all it felt... umm... kludgy, I guess is the word. So I never got GalCiv II. From what I could tell from reviews, it wasn't enough different from GalCiv I to be worth the effort, but I do hope that I'm wrong. I have nothing but respect for the Stardock team.

Yes, Jon Shafer is a Firaxian and had a team of developers co-working on FF. But it was obviously not as big an effort as would have gone into a full game. Even though it's developed by Firaxis, it's still a mod, no more and no less. Hence my question if we could expect any more than what already is. If he wasn't a Firaxian, it would likely have been a moot issue due to licensing problems. But since he is...

Like EugeneStyles I've also considered the option of starting a modding project to extend FF, but again like him I wouldn't have the time or the skills necessary to head such a project. I would be happy to contribute if someone else were to start it though. But I would be happiest if Firaxis did it for us.

Luckmann said:

Straight from MoO2 to Final Frontier? Ever heard about Galactic Civilizations 2?

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I noted in my original post that I wasn't too happy with neither version of GalCiv. In 2, my greatest issue is that you can micromanage your heart out, optimizing sliders every turn for maximum throughput, and to a compulsive micromanager like myself that's a death warrant.

Just a couple of quick thoughts: I really don't know if Jon or anyone at Firaxis actually pays attention to what fans want, so I have no expectations for a full FF game. My impression is that they build what they think will sell. As for GalCiv I and II, I have both and although I, too, love the concept, I find both a bit too slow (playtime and reload time!). I wish it were different, but that's how I see it.

How about a Babylon 5 expansion for this mod?

UncleJoe said:

Just a couple of quick thoughts: I really don't know if Jon or anyone at Firaxis actually pays attention to what fans want, so I have no expectations for a full FF game. My impression is that they build what they think will sell. As for GalCiv I and II, I have both and although I, too, love the concept, I find both a bit too slow (playtime and reload time!). I wish it were different, but that's how I see it.

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Nice to know I'm not the only one that things GalCiv II was too slow.

All I read is praise about it on reviews and after having played it, I was quite disappointed.

It's been a while since I've posted, but I started my first Final Frontier game recently, and I realized how well Babylon 5 fits to the system...certainly better than Battlestar Galactica. Of course this could be influenced by the fact that my brother and I just got all five seasons of B5 as a Eid gift (I'm halfway through Season 3), but that's another story.

It would take some doing to model the whole Shadow War, so I think we should just model the [wiki]Earth Alliance Civil War[/wiki], starting at "[wiki]Severed Dreams[/wiki];" non-human civilizations would have to be non-playable and minimal. If we can succeed with the Civil War, then maybe we can expand it.

These suggestions apply to any B5 mod/scenario:
1. Warp/jump lanes have to go. I'm developing a method to model jumpgates and the rules surrounding them, but it would take too long to explain here.

2. On that note, there should be more space within and between systems, and interstellar space should hold a higher movement cost (to make sure that the map size isn't truly absurd)

3. The B5 station itself ought to be modeled as a cross between a starbase and a colony.

4. Instead of "space pirates," have "Raiders." This much should be obvious.

These suggestions apply to the initial step (a model of the EA Civil War) only:

1. The interlude from mid-2260 to August 2261 (second half of Season 3 and first half of Season 4, if Wiki is right) in which Sheridan concentrates on the Shadows, will have to be modified to be merely a building period.

2. There will have to be a way to model the fact that some systems are divided (i.e. Mars).

3. The playable civilizations ought to be:

• Free Colonies
  • Leader: John Sheridan, favorite civic Democracy
  • Color: White OR Light Blue
  • Symbol: Babylon 5 "5" OR something else...
  • UU: White Star
  • Cities/whatever should include Babylon 5, Mars, Proxima III, and Orion VII.
• Earth Alliance
  • Leader: Morgan Clark, favorite civic Police State
  • Color: Dark Blue
  • Symbol: Earth Alliance symbol
  • UU: Omega-X class destroyer
  • Earth, some others

4. Non-playables: All of these folks are aliens, so ALL units are unique.

• Light Minbari (Worker and Religious Castes)
  • Leader: Delenn
  • Color: White OR Purple
  • Symbol: Some sort of triangle
  • I don't know about cities, since it's not clear who holds sway on Minbar.
• Narn Regime-in-exile
  • Leader: G'Kar
  • Color: Orange OR Red OR Brown
  • Symbol: I don't know. Writing? Zigzags? A coffee stain?
  • Note: Does not own any systems. Exists as a single Heavy Cruiser and a single defense unit on B5 (the Narn contingent of B5 Security)
• Centauri Republic
  • Leader: Emperor Cartagia
  • Color: Dark purple OR Red
  • Symbol: I dunno. Head with funny hair?
  • Cities/whatever should include Centauri Prime, Goresh (7), Ragesh (3), and Narn (as an occupied territory)

I'll start a new thread if I get enough interest. Is there?

Glad to hear you guys like Final Frontier, and thank you for your compliments of my work.

As you appropriately point out, it's definitely a mod and not a full game/expansion in and of itself. That was mostly due to time constraints. Most of my time was taken up by working on other parts of the expansion, and there were a bunch of other scenarios in addition to the core content to support. I'm still fairly pleased with how it turned out, but there's definitely room for more.

Although I'd like to continue supporting Final Frontier with new features and expand on it with new civs, techs, events, etc., my time is now taken up with a new project at Firaxis and I'm afraid I only have so many brain cells to go around. Fortunately Civ 4 (and its mods themselves) are quite moddable, and I know of a couple different projects being undertaken to expand on Final Frontier in different ways. In particular, I know of a Star Trek Mod being made by deanej.

As far as an official "Final Frontier" product, I can tell you that no such thing is planned right now. It was just a mod I thought would be interesting to work on and the higher-ups have their sights set elsewhere. You never know though, things can change. If it's something you'd really like to see, then you can go to the Firaxis Game Feedback Page and pass it along.

Thanks again everyone, and happy holidays.

Jon

Wow...I'm a real conversation-killer, aren't I.

PsiCorps said:

How about a Babylon 5 expansion for this mod?

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Amen!, I was just thinking that!

@Lockesdonkey

I feel that a B5 mod for FF could/should include the whole main races, and perhaps the league (But perhaps the Vorlon and the Shadows... and any other first ones should be nonplayable). And there could be an "Earth Alliance Civil War" Scenario for FF:B5.

@Jon Shafer
Thank you so much for this mod!!

Premier Valle said:

Amen!, I was just thinking that!

@Lockesdonkey

I feel that a B5 mod for FF could/should include the whole main races, and perhaps the league (But perhaps the Vorlon and the Shadows... and any other first ones should be nonplayable). And there could be an "Earth Alliance Civil War" Scenario for FF:B5.

@Jon Shafer
Thank you so much for this mod!!

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That's what I'm saying, but we'd set up just the scenario at first, as a testbed, and THEN move on to bigger things.

@Jon: Thanks for the reply, it was much what I expected. I copied my entire post to that feedback page you linked to, let's hope someone on your side picks up the idea.

@Lockesdonkey et al: I wouldn't be interested in an extension of FF for Star Trek/B5/Star Wars etc. Part of my appreciation for FF comes from the simple fact that it is an original piece of work. If I were to contribute to a modding effort to extend FF, I would not want to be trapped by already existing fiction. Full artistic freedom is the key, just like FFH doesn't simply copy any of the extensive existing fantasy literature.

@Niklas
Well, I actually don't have modding experience with CivIV (but I have with other games), so for starters adding to the original FF is a good way to start.

@Lockesdonkey
Sounds like a plan!

@ Niklas: I respect that opinion, and I like the original story as well. However, the idea of using an established fiction means that it would be easier to figure out what needs improvement in the basic FF engine BEFORE using it for something else (be it improving the base mod or making mods to the mod); you don't have to work on writing a new story at the same time that you're working out game mechanics.

Hi All, I'm currently looking at all the B5 stuff i have to work out a tech tree, benefits of the techs and some resources. Don't know if we'll need to start a new thread to start a B5 developement for FF