How devastating is it losing early wonders by one turn (like oracle)?
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Pangaea
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Losing the Oracle can be painful to be honest, because otherwise you wouldn't bother with those religious techs, and trade for them instead, while going for more important techs like Alpha, Currency and so on. At least you get some failgold out of it, but that early in the game I'd rather either get it or not bother at all. Better to lose it very early than after all teched are researched and you're almost done with the Oracle.
More generally, however, losing a wonder doesn't hurt much, and in many cases is actually beneficial. If you have the +100% resource (usually stone or marble), building a wonder and failing to get it is twice as effective as building wealth. This is a common strategy to get gold to fund research, particularly at the higher levels where the AIs are fast, so you won't have to wait forever before they finish Statue of Zeus or whatever.
Most wonders are not worth having, because the benefit is marginal. Oracle, however, is one that can give a great boost in the early game, particularly for trading purposes. By getting that one free tech (typical choices are Code of Laws, Currency or Metal Casting), you can get several other 'free' ones by trading.
Losing the Oracle certainly isn't an instant restart. The game is far from over, although you haven't got off to the greatest start ever.
Could well be you're aware of this, but I'll mention it anyway
The wonders that are typically worth having are:
Sometimes the Hanging Gardens can be good too, but in general I don't try to build it. An aqueduct is expensive and unneeded until far into the game, and unless you already have a big empire, the benefit isn't very high (it gives you +1 pop per city, so the more cities you have when you build it, the better it is).
Can make a case for some of the others, perhaps especially in the late game in space races, like Notre Dame and Cristo Redentor.
Should point out that you don't need to have all these in all games, it's perfectly fine to play games without building a single wonder - in fact, it's a good way to play to learn the basics better - but if you are going to wonderwhore a bit, it's better to build the ones that are actually worth the investment.
More generally, however, losing a wonder doesn't hurt much, and in many cases is actually beneficial. If you have the +100% resource (usually stone or marble), building a wonder and failing to get it is twice as effective as building wealth. This is a common strategy to get gold to fund research, particularly at the higher levels where the AIs are fast, so you won't have to wait forever before they finish Statue of Zeus or whatever.
Most wonders are not worth having, because the benefit is marginal. Oracle, however, is one that can give a great boost in the early game, particularly for trading purposes. By getting that one free tech (typical choices are Code of Laws, Currency or Metal Casting), you can get several other 'free' ones by trading.
Losing the Oracle certainly isn't an instant restart. The game is far from over, although you haven't got off to the greatest start ever.
Could well be you're aware of this, but I'll mention it anyway
The wonders that are typically worth having are: - Oracle
- Mausoleum of Mausollos (MoM)
- Great Library
- Great Lighthouse (depending on map, watery maps are better for it)
- Pyramids (great to capture it, because it's expensive to build, but with stone it can be okay to self-build it)
- Taj Mahal
- Statue of Liberty (depends on map, and it's late, but it can be very good)
- Kremlin (also very late, but an extremely strong wonder)
Sometimes the Hanging Gardens can be good too, but in general I don't try to build it. An aqueduct is expensive and unneeded until far into the game, and unless you already have a big empire, the benefit isn't very high (it gives you +1 pop per city, so the more cities you have when you build it, the better it is).
Can make a case for some of the others, perhaps especially in the late game in space races, like Notre Dame and Cristo Redentor.
Should point out that you don't need to have all these in all games, it's perfectly fine to play games without building a single wonder - in fact, it's a good way to play to learn the basics better - but if you are going to wonderwhore a bit, it's better to build the ones that are actually worth the investment.
Oracle as mentioned hurts if you specifically gunned for it. If I did a normal path to alpha and traded for PH, I often go for the Oracle anyways because it's just that huge if you win, but that late in the game you sacrifice a lot less. Mids also hurts a lot if you self teched masonry and went for it really early because you lose a lot of hammers.
None of the other wonders are really game losing to miss out on, because you usually need gold more than hammers, and the wonders aren't necessary to win.
None of the other wonders are really game losing to miss out on, because you usually need gold more than hammers, and the wonders aren't necessary to win.
Well... I felt totally terrible losing GLH (this wonder map type) on 2300 BC when I was actually going for it (Sailing->Mining->Masonry->BW). Usually i can get it if I go for it.. And it has no resource bonus so failgold is much lower than any other early wonder with stone/marble..
Macksideshow
Prince
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I agree with that list too though would say most wonders need their resource or the AI will prob get it. It depends a bit on skill level and victory condition obviously but I think sometimes wonders can justified just for the GPP. Hanging gardens, for example, if you have forests to chop. Thats a nice little boost at time of the game and gives at least a chance of an early GE.
To answer the OP, It is highly devastating to lose a wonder by one turn. Depending on what level reloader you are there's the option of reloading an autosave a few turns before and try chop/whip/micro it earlier.
I would probably rage quit if it were the oracle but I personally never build it as I always have other tech priorities at that stage. I rage quit the pyramids but usually I get it.
Wonders aren't bad to lose though, as is often said, the gold payout is a handy tech boost.
Lexicus
Deity
My first thought when I saw the thread title was "all that fail gold"...if going for failgold missing the wonder by 1 turn is the best possible outcome, no?
I don't usually build Pyramids or Oracle, the early wonders I typically try for are the Parthenon and Great Library. If I miss either I don't really care (though this used to make me ditch the game). In general I have found I do better when I ignore the early wonders and build units instead.
The one that will cause me to reload if I miss it by a few turns is actually the Kremlin.
I don't usually build Pyramids or Oracle, the early wonders I typically try for are the Parthenon and Great Library. If I miss either I don't really care (though this used to make me ditch the game). In general I have found I do better when I ignore the early wonders and build units instead.
The one that will cause me to reload if I miss it by a few turns is actually the Kremlin.
Pangaea
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Certainly, particularly if taking the long view in a corporation fueled space game. Getting the Mids and HG in the same city (plus a forge-ineer) makes it much easier to get that blasted GE for Mining Inc.
Seraiel
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Generally, only missing the Oracle by 1T would make me quit the game. I don't slow-build the Oracle anymore anyhow, so that chance is very small. I usually go directly for Alpha and then I can either trade for the Oracle-techs and chop-whip it or I can at least see, how many AIs have Priesthood, if more than one I'd probably already stop but as I play for HoF, I ofc. try regardless of that, and sometimes Alpha also allows to see if an AI has already started on building it. If having sight on the AIs capital and 2nd city, one can also see via Espionage if that AI started on building something costing many 
. It requires training though, to distinguish a Settler from a possible Oracle though (hint: Settlers have a higher increase in production than other builds because they get speed up by 
) , and it's impossible to distinguish a beginning other Wonder from the Oracle. It still can be of help if i. e. seeing the one AI's capital that has Priesthood, and knowing that it hasn't started on something big, or if the exceed the cost of Oracle, that it must be Mids, GLH or ToA.
A very simple formula for calculating the an AIs city currently has stored in a build was found by the player Doshin:
Addition: The modifier for normal speed is 100.
2nd addition: If you can't see the InfluenceCivicCosts, use the City Revolt Costs. Those are about 10% too high though, so for more accuracy, conduct 10% from them, before you divide the SabotageCost by them.
As the question is how bad it is to miss a Wonder by 1 turn though: That depends heavily. The only Wonders you'd really need to build yourself are Oracle, HGs and TM. Missing out the HGs in a Corporation game without a PHI-civ can be terrible though. Missing the TM is often the more common case on Deity, because AI gets mostly GEs during that time and simply 1T-builds it. Losing Kremlin is horrible too, because Kremlin is simply a game-changer, but that also really applies to competetive games. I won't judge every wonder in single now, because the truth is, that I don't build any of them regularly. Building the Mids i. e. is imo. worse than settling 3 cities instead of them. Parthenon and TGL obsolete so fast that they mostly don't matter in my games, especially as I also don't research Aesthetics myself, or only after Education
.
The list of Pangaea is actually very good to show you, which Wonders are worth it at all, or under which circumstances. A 2nd wonder which would make me quite the game would btw. be the GLH on a watery map or the sixtine Chapel in a competetive Culture-game.
Remember that formula above, it's really simple. A devided by B or by C -10% and watch out for AI getting GEs. Should an AI ever get a GE and be able to build a Wonder you really "need" , think about gifting it more techs that unlock Wonders, so the chance gets divided. AI loves to GE-rush the Apostolic Palace i. e., how about gifting Theology to a civ having your religion or your neighbour that you plan to invade? ^^
Hth.
[EDIT]
Here is the source of the formula: Tachywaxon's Thread of Game Mechanics . On Deity and I believe also Immortal, the AI also gets an era modifier, so on Deity, the productioni of AIs in i. e. Industrial times is 5 times as high as it normally would be (guessed) but at the same time, all costs that AI got are further reduced by 5%. Accurate numbers in the thread (afaik) .
. It requires training though, to distinguish a Settler from a possible Oracle though (hint: Settlers have a higher increase in production than other builds because they get speed up by ) , and it's impossible to distinguish a beginning other Wonder from the Oracle. It still can be of help if i. e. seeing the one AI's capital that has Priesthood, and knowing that it hasn't started on something big, or if the exceed the cost of Oracle, that it must be Mids, GLH or ToA.A very simple formula for calculating the
an AIs city currently has stored in a build was found by the player Doshin:Doshin said:
Addition: The modifier for normal speed is 100.
2nd addition: If you can't see the InfluenceCivicCosts, use the City Revolt Costs. Those are about 10% too high though, so for more accuracy, conduct 10% from them, before you divide the SabotageCost by them.
As the question is how bad it is to miss a Wonder by 1 turn though: That depends heavily. The only Wonders you'd really need to build yourself are Oracle, HGs and TM. Missing out the HGs in a Corporation game without a PHI-civ can be terrible though. Missing the TM is often the more common case on Deity, because AI gets mostly GEs during that time and simply 1T-builds it. Losing Kremlin is horrible too, because Kremlin is simply a game-changer, but that also really applies to competetive games. I won't judge every wonder in single now, because the truth is, that I don't build any of them regularly. Building the Mids i. e. is imo. worse than settling 3 cities instead of them. Parthenon and TGL obsolete so fast that they mostly don't matter in my games, especially as I also don't research Aesthetics myself, or only after Education
.The list of Pangaea is actually very good to show you, which Wonders are worth it at all, or under which circumstances. A 2nd wonder which would make me quite the game would btw. be the GLH on a watery map or the sixtine Chapel in a competetive Culture-game.
Remember that formula above, it's really simple. A devided by B or by C -10% and watch out for AI getting GEs. Should an AI ever get a GE and be able to build a Wonder you really "need" , think about gifting it more techs that unlock Wonders, so the chance gets divided. AI loves to GE-rush the Apostolic Palace i. e., how about gifting Theology to a civ having your religion or your neighbour that you plan to invade? ^^
Hth.
[EDIT]
Here is the source of the formula: Tachywaxon's Thread of Game Mechanics . On Deity and I believe also Immortal, the AI also gets an era modifier, so on Deity, the productioni of AIs in i. e. Industrial times is 5 times as high as it normally would be (guessed) but at the same time, all costs that AI got are further reduced by 5%. Accurate numbers in the thread (afaik) .
obsolete
Deity
Of course it is....
EVERY single time I'm trying to race for that statue of Zeus... and the damn AI finishes it on the same frieken turn!!! Ughhhhh!!!
I usually have to re-start my games 10x in a row until I FINALLY get that SoZ wonder.
I really wish Firaxis did not make Monarch so frieken tuff to beat... the wonder races are outrageous....!!!!$#$!!!!
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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Lol such a n00bsense. AI doesn't get the SoZ in none of my games, and I play Emperor . You only need to find out if any civ gets Aesthetics, and because Monuments are needed for the SoZ, you simply need to steal Mysticism from them if they do. Idk why, but at some time, the SoZ just vanishes from the build-options, then I know I'm safe. I learned this from the great Attacko, I thought it was common knowledge.
. You only need to find out if any civ gets Aesthetics, and because Monuments are needed for the SoZ, you simply need to steal Mysticism from them if they do. Idk why, but at some time, the SoZ just vanishes from the build-options, then I know I'm safe. I learned this from the great Attacko, I thought it was common knowledge.I miss the TGD wonder in that list when going for a space victory.
Btw, do players prefer Mining Inc or the TGD wonder when going to Alpha Centauri?
In a recent game I had a late GE, Mining Inc was still available, but I was also close to Plastics and no AI had this tech.
Btw, do players prefer Mining Inc or the TGD wonder when going to Alpha Centauri?
In a recent game I had a late GE, Mining Inc was still available, but I was also close to Plastics and no AI had this tech.
Seraiel
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Difficult question without knowing the situation. Mining is very strong together with Sushi, on its own I'd probably prefer State Property. The TGD is generally not a wonder that's worth building, because Coal Plants are so cheap and available so early, that 1. building Coal Plants in every city is usually cheaper than the TGD and 2. they provide so many extra
in the time where other powerplants aren't available yet, that they pay for themselves 'til then. The TGD or the other PPs are then only there to give back 
, but as a city only gets 2 
if not connecting the Oil but only the Coal, and as techs get researched so fast with a strong empire so late in the game, that is often a non-factor, because the game ends sooner than that extra could pay back.I once calculated if Aequeducts or Hospitals would make sense in my game and found out, that they mostly don't make sense either, but building plain Wealth or Research is preferable. A city would need to get an extra population from the additional
and that citizen would need to work long enough to outperform the cost of the building giving . I know this is hard to calculate, but a usual Specialist (1 population) gives 10 
/ turn (6 * 1.75 for 75% bonus) so if you can get a single population more for longer than 20T (20T * 10BPT = 200BPT = cost of Aequeduct in ) , the Aequduct makes sense. It's very similar for the TGD.Similar threads
