Project SYNTHESIS

I probably won't then. J. Pride, this puts me in a dilemma. It's sort of odd just to keep a one city civ around via scripting.

Im sorry but i didnt quite get the problem with this is? It doesnt matter if the Seljuks vassalize the Abbasids as the Caliph was quite independent. I was the one that supported weakening the Arabs but i definitely didnt want them dissapeared. My idea is quite simple and compromised. If the Arabs collapse; the keep Baghdad (human collapse) and if their capital is conquered (which is Baghdad most of the time) they collapse but Baghdad declares independence as the Abbasids.

I mean it not that much different than the Byzantines that get 2 cities. I bet currently the Arabs collapse most of the time long before their historical date. This is not accurate and wont be fun to have the Byzantines conquer a independent Middle East once the Seljuks weaken
 
Too deterministic is what I'm trying to say. Who says the Seljuks COULDN'T have conquered Baghdad. The way I like to think of it is that in our world, Arabia was controlled by the human and RNG was ion their favor, so they managed to hold out.
 
Leoreth, what was the original reason this wasn't done?

I just played a DoC game with Japan (v 1.73, not SVN) and I can tell you that it happens, Mongolia DoW on me on spawn.
Don't know about Korea though.
 
I certainly don't see it in the code. Unless Leoreth decided to put it apart from the area with the rest of the civs. Probably ust a happy coincidence.
 
Before I say anything Linkman, could you add these two modifications:

Water Mod v2

Improved Graphics for CIV IV

Both of them have changed water tiles, so you can choose which one you like better.

They should both be really easy to implement, and would make the game look sooo much better! :eek:

In 1501? You could have the Qizilbashi Cavalry sport guns instead perhaps, and have them replace vanilla "cavalry". I've just never heard of Qizilbashi footmen :confused:

I'll get back to you about the rest later.
 
Before I say anything Linkman, could you add these two modifications:

Water Mod v2

Improved Graphics for CIV IV

Both of them have changed water tiles, so you can choose which one you like better.

They should both be really easy to implement, and would make the game look sooo much better! :eek:

The water looks too artificial. I personally prefer Blue Marble over either of these.

In 1501? You could have the Qizilbashi Cavalry sport guns instead perhaps, and have them replace vanilla "cavalry". I've just never heard of Qizilbashi footmen :confused:

I'll get back to you about the rest later.

Ummm....
 
Too deterministic is what I'm trying to say. Who says the Seljuks COULDN'T have conquered Baghdad. The way I like to think of it is that in our world, Arabia was controlled by the human and RNG was ion their favor, so they managed to hold out.

It doesnt matter even if the Seljuks had conquered Baghdad; what would have happened is that the Caliph would have still retained his title and limited control over Baghdad. As soon as the Seljuks would weaken the Caliph would reaffirm his authority. The problem right now is the that the Arabs collapse most of the time; which in itself is deterministic. I have an alternate proposal which is less deterministic.

I do however acknowledge ur point that my current plan is too deterministic so i have an alternate proposal :

-If the Arabs collapse before the Seljuk conquer Baghdad than Arabia gets a Byzantine type collapse where they only control Baghdad.

-Taking ur second point into consideration if the Seljuks conquer Baghdad; fine than thats that. But when u change the name of the Seljuks into the Khwarezm Khanate; u said that u would also make their Anatolian holdings independent. Well I suggest that you also grant independence to the Arabs and grant Baghdad to them as u can see in the map below:
Abbasid.png
 
New plan: Controlled collapse of Seljuks, Abbasid declaration of independence, all depending on a random number roll.
 
New plan: Controlled collapse of Seljuks, Abbasid declaration of independence, all depending on a random number roll.

So does this mean that u will still implement
-If the Arabs collapse before the Seljuk conquer Baghdad than Arabia gets a Byzantine type collapse where they only control Baghdad.

And what do u mean by a controlled collapse?

Can you make the following percentage for declaring independence:
-Anatolia 70%
-Levant 80%
-Mesopotamia 70%
 
Ya, multiple spots, along with a force when a city is conquered. The problem with UNIT_AI_ATTACK_CITY_LEMMING is that, much like lemmings, the unit will simply abandon a newly conquered city in pursuit of the next city. I believe the city capture spawn is a pikeman and a longbowman.
Sounds good, I think I'll get around to reimport your adjustments :)

Are you, by any chance, adding Seljuks?
Well I was thinking about having them be barbarians (hence my question), but you convinced me that they make it easier to clean up the area and get the Mongols in afterwards (ironically, it's easier to make them conquer a prper (if minor) civ than independents or barbarians).

Leoreth, what was the original reason this wasn't done?
Earlier on, it was done, but a war on spawn against Korea ended up distracting and diverting Mongol forces that were supposed to attack China.


Ona another note, lately I got the impression that some people around here see good things in SoI and want them to be taken over as they are. That's a misleading attitude in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, SoI is great, but this is also a matter of scale. A global scenario can't possibly reflect on all the details as SoI can, because of scale. We're all a little biased to the Middle East because SoI made us both knowledgable and enthusiastic about it, but I fear in the end it will just lead to undue special treatment.
 
Sounds good, I think I'll get around to reimport your adjustments :)


Well I was thinking about having them be barbarians (hence my question), but you convinced me that they make it easier to clean up the area and get the Mongols in afterwards (ironically, it's easier to make them conquer a prper (if minor) civ than independents or barbarians).

Cool :)

And yes, that is ironic, although it has a lot to do with my scripting of large hordes.


Earlier on, it was done, but a war on spawn against Korea ended up distracting and diverting Mongol forces that were supposed to attack China.

Ah I see. Well we could do what I did for the Seljuks- make it at a certain date rather than on first contact. Or increase the AIWars value, perhaps? How high is it right now?


Ona another note, lately I got the impression that some people around here see good things in SoI and want them to be taken over as they are. That's a misleading attitude in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, SoI is great, but this is also a matter of scale. A global scenario can't possibly reflect on all the details as SoI can, because of scale. We're all a little biased to the Middle East because SoI made us both knowledgable and enthusiastic about it, but I fear in the end it will just lead to undue special treatment.

:agree:
 
Ona another note, lately I got the impression that some people around here see good things in SoI and want them to be taken over as they are. That's a misleading attitude in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, SoI is great, but this is also a matter of scale. A global scenario can't possibly reflect on all the details as SoI can, because of scale. We're all a little biased to the Middle East because SoI made us both knowledgable and enthusiastic about it, but I fear in the end it will just lead to undue special treatment.

If this is referring to my suggestions on the Abbasids; then note that my kind of "special treatment" is not limited to the Middle East. One of the reasons i made the new China map was just to add Kaifeng, Nanjing and make China more historically accurate. This is also one of the reasons i suggested adding the Holy League to Europe and adding a minor Poland. This is because I believe that if one wants to make the game better they have to represent history. Representing History imo leads to a much more exciting game but by this i dont mean hardcoding everything but rather point the Ai in the right direction and let the game have variance for example the Mongol Conquerers event, New World Conquest, Portestant Reformation etc.
 
Sometimes you have to draw a line what you can represent and what not without being obtrusive.
 
I think a controlled collapse for the Seljuks is in order, but with respect to a single city Abbasids I must ask what the point is? It will be a matter of ten turns MAX before the Mongols sweep in, and that's if the Khan woke up feeling lethargic that morning.
 
Sometimes you have to draw a line what you can represent and what not without being obtrusive.

I understand what u are trying to say; I realized that and that is why i instead recommended having a high chance that Arabia respawn (in Baghdad) after the Seljuk demise. The part about Anatolia declaring independence was already presented by Linkman I just expanded on that to include Mesopotamia. The Byzantine and Arab collapse mechanic is there to help these kingdoms cope with their lots of enemies and so make the game better if one spawns as the Turks or the Mongols. I hope it makes sense.
 
I think a controlled collapse for the Seljuks is in order, but with respect to a single city Abbasids I must ask what the point is? It will be a matter of ten turns MAX before the Mongols sweep in, and that's if the Khan woke up feeling lethargic that morning.

Alright, I had other plans that I was going to present afterwards but here it is:

Currently I find the Arab shrine UHV pretty completely ahistorical and underwhelming that is why I wanted it to be replaced by either one of these:

-Be the most technologically advanced civ in 1300 ad (or x date).
-Make Baghdad the most populous and productive (cultured too if possible) city in the world 1300 (or x date) ad.

You see some players prefer to play expansionist civilizations while there are other that would like the feel of small civilizations like the Dutch. Now if the first Arabs requires them to conquer most of the Middle East and then face multiple invasions that forces them to give up alot of their territory; this will mean that the Arabs can become a perfect combination of expansionism and the small civ feel. To acheive the second UHV would force the player to retreat to their capital and focus on technology (i mean they can fight the different invaders; Egypt and Seljuks but that would lead to them most likely missing their second goal). With Baghdad the Arabs will focus on achieving their second goal and holding out the Mongols. By doing this the Arabs become a unique and fun playing experience that is dynamic, changing and different from all other civs (there is no other civ that can become a perfect combination of expansionism (Spain, Mongols etc) and focus (Dutch, Korea etc). This fits perfectly into the middle eastern theme of rise and fall. This is part of my bigger goal of making civilizations like Arabia, China, India and Persia more unqiue and fun to play.

Wow, this was hard to explain. Im not even sure if u will understand what im trying to say but i hope that u do.
 
McWinniage and any one viewing the bug where the game would ask you if you wanted your own cities to flip to you as the Mongols... you're not crazy, this is an actual bug. Leoreth is attempting to fix it.

J. Pride- Good ideas. Keep brainstorming, I'll get to the Arabs soon, right after I finish some last tweaks of the Seljuks
 
Haha, I didn't even see that quote above, good one :lol:

That said, I agree with you that both suggestions would be better than the shrine one for Arabia (currently favoring the tech related goal) and I also think it's good to have that "oh crap" feeling when the Seljuks and Mongols sweep into the Middle East.

But we don't need any guaranteed core consisting of Baghdad or whatever for that. If you play Arabia and these invasions hinder you from completing your goals? Well then it's up to you to kick those Turks and Mongols back into Central Asia where they belong ;)
 
Right. And keep those troublesome Egyptians down, now that they respawn so often.

It's still based on the stability parameters as nationalism rebirths so if you can control your stability you'll be fine ;)
 
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