Capto Iugulum: Empires and Nations

To: Spain
From: The United State of America


No. Our nation was founded on principles that apply to all men, regardless as to whether or not they are living in Florida, Pennsylvania or Vinland. We are not turning our backs on our nationals, who you very well will probably kill and abuse, as is the theme of Spanish rule in the Americas. We also refuse to force our people out of our lands. We assure you, if you attempt to do either, their will be bloodshed. Without the American military involving itself.

We must once again insist on buying the land for a more then reasonable price, in the hopes that we may forget this. We are not opposed as to letting the Pope mediate, so long as He acts fair in His judgments.
To: United States
From: The Empire of Holy Spain

Your "nationals" would not be killed if they abided by the laws of the Empire. Surely, if one of our people lived in the United States and committed a crime, your judges would make sure he got his correct punishment regardless of where he came from.

It is the same case here. If they live in the Empire of Holy Spain, they can't live by the laws of the United States, nor those of the Maratha Confederation, to put an example.

We weren't asking for you to push your people out of your lands. We are telling you that, if you don't want your people to die after they commit the crime of rebellion against the Emperor, then either the United States renounce to Florida, which would be the best message to be given to those people that Florida is Spanish, or those people leave Florida never to return.

As for buying Florida... we remain with our previous statement. Florida is Spanish. End of discussion. And even if we were willing to sell Florida, the actual reasonable price would be to high for your country to pay.
 
To: Spain
From: The United States of America


So you plan on killing Americans en masse? We aren't suggesting that what they did was legal, by any means. But if a government cannot moderate, and control things such as immigration, and notice when growing dissent beckons calls for Revolution from foreign nationals, perhaps the government should start to shift the blame to itself.

A question arises- What did Spain expect to happen when thousands of Americans moved into Florida? For all of them to assimilate perfectly? Your position is rather untenable.

You continually find rather flimsy excuses as to why we cannot work out some sort of deal in this situation. You are stubborn to a fault, and we hope that, Spain as a whole does not suffer for it. If you don't wish to negotiate, that is on you. We do not wish for war, nor will we actively seek it. You may handle the guilty Americans as you may wish. But making martyrs of the population won't do you very much good. When it backfires on you miserably, know that we will not be as kind in that regard, as we are now. And know if you harm a single innocent American life, our next communications will certainly be less amiable.
 
I'll take Paris.
 
To: Spain
From: The United States of America


So you plan on killing Americans en masse? We aren't suggesting that what they did was legal, by any means. But if a government cannot moderate, and control things such as immigration, and notice when growing dissent beckons calls for Revolution from foreign nationals, perhaps the government should start to shift the blame to itself.

A question arises- What did Spain expect to happen when thousands of Americans moved into Florida? For all of them to assimilate perfectly? Your position is rather untenable.

You continually find rather flimsy excuses as to why we cannot work out some sort of deal in this situation. You are stubborn to a fault, and we hope that, Spain as a whole does not suffer for it. If you don't wish to negotiate, that is on you. We do not wish for war, nor will we actively seek it. You may handle the guilty Americans as you may wish. But making martyrs of the population won't do you very much good. When it backfires on you miserably, know that we will not be as kind in that regard, as we are now. And know if you harm a single innocent American life, our next communications will certainly be less amiable.

To: United States
From: Empire of Holy Spain

Despite what you may think, we regard law very high. The ones that do not do it are those that come into Florida and immediately think that they can do whatever they want. They can not make their cake and eat it, as it is said. If they want to live in Florida, then they have to live with the laws and culture of Florida. If they want to live with the laws and culture of the United States, then they have to live within the United States. The last time we checked, Florida was not a part of the United States, but of the Empire of Holy Spain. They can not come and demand that the Empire's laws adjust to their wishes.

We admit that the soldiers' attack on the so-called Jacksonville was disproportionate, but those that resisted also acted in a disproportionate way. When they arrived to Florida, they should have known that they would not live by their former laws anymore. We never expected them to easily assimilate the superior culture of the Empire, but at the same time, we expect people that live somewhere under the Emperor's rule to obey the laws sanctioned by the Emperor.

Another question arises, too: if these people want to be citizens of the United States, why do they leave the United States? If they want new lands, there is enough space west of the Mississippi River. They have no need to come to Florida. They knew when they came to Florida that it was part of Spain. They can not put any excuses and say that, when they travelled to Florida, they expected the United States Flag to fly over their town hall.

Believe us, those people that are found to be guilty of treason against the Emperor will be judged and condemned. If an "American" life is harmed, then it will be because they decided to rebel against the government they should obey. And if the "Americans" don't want to obey, there is an easier resource than fighting the government. They can pack everything they possess and go up north, where they will surely find what they want.

And... flimsy excuses? Sorry for not giving you a colony of ours for what would surely be a minimal fraction of the money we have invested there. We are sure that, if, for example, New England was full of English people and they suddenly rebelled because they want to be ruled by the King of the United Kingdom, you would not sell New England to the United Kingdom "for a reasonable price", as you say we should do. You would make sure those people who rebelled were judged, and that the land they wanted you to sell went back under your country's rule.

Again, we ask you not to insult our intelligence.

And remember one thing: if it weren't for the Empire of Holy Spain's support, the United States would not exist. So, do not act ungratefully after we helped you.

OOC: The reason why I'm saying this is that Spain heavily supported the United states during the American Revolutionary War. Given that, in here, the Kingdom of France does not exist (or at least it doesn't exist as it does in OTL), the only great powers able to aid the United States would have been Spain and Sweden, and I can't see only Sweden giving a hand to the US.
 
From: Swedish Empire
To: Spain

Your pretensions that the United States, a sovereign nation, should bow to your assault on its nationals for past aid is repugnant. Your colonial governors have acted as arbiters to a slaughter; for shame.

From: Swedish Empire
To: United States

We also value our economic relationship highly. To a new era of Swedish-American friendship and cooperation.
 
From: Swedish Empire
To: Spain

Your pretensions that the United States, a sovereign nation, should bow to your assault on its nationals for past aid is repugnant. Your colonial governors have acted as arbiters to a slaughter; for shame.

To: Sweden
From: Empire of Holy Spain

Your pretensions that we should just bow out and give independence to a land that has been part of the Empire for centuries just because a bunch of foreigners live there and don't want to obey the law is not only repugnant, but hilarious.

OOC: BURN!!!! :D
 
To: Spain
From: The United States of America
CC: Sweden


Ah yes, recalling a war that was fought upwards of 50 years ago. Of course you have our thanks for that. But we fail to see how our actions in that, are any different then our citizens actions in your Empire. If you consider the actions of these rebels to be illegal, then why did you support us in our own revolution? Your very description of the current growing conflict is exactly that of what occurred between us and our past Colonial Rulers.

Spanish Foreign Office said:
Your pretensions that we should just bow out and give independence to a land that has been part of the Empire for centuries just because a bunch of foreigners live there and don't want to obey the law is not only repugnant, but hilarious.

Further more, we have not even worked out a set price for a possible trade of the land. Land, that mind you, without American support, trade and hard work is useless. At this point, we'd be interested to see Spain maintain the land without us aiding the rebels in anyway. It is a moot point, apparently. We have offered you several peaceful solutions, which would allow you to profit off of losing a colony. Regardless if we intervene of not, the people of Spanish Florida have had enough of your tyrannical rule, which is hardly difficult to believe.

OOC:

Terrance:
Spoiler :


EDIT: Ninja'd.
 
To: Spain
From: The United States of America
CC: Sweden


Ah yes, recalling a war that was fought upwards of 50 years ago. Of course you have our thanks for that. But we fail to see how our actions in that, are any different then our citizens actions in your Empire. If you consider the actions of these rebels to be illegal, then why did you support us in our own revolution? Your very description of the current growing conflict is exactly that of what occurred between us and our past Colonial Rulers.

Further more, we have not even worked out a set price for a possible trade of the land. Land, that mind you, without American support, trade and hard work is useless. At this point, we'd be interested to see Spain maintain the land without us aiding the rebels in anyway. It is a moot point, apparently. We have offered you several peaceful solutions, which would allow you to profit off of losing a colony. Regardless if we intervene of not, the people of Spanish Florida have had enough of your tyrannical rule, which is hardly difficult to believe.

From: Empire of Holy Spain
To:
US
Just to put a few examples:
  • There have been no law changes of great importance in the Empire, affecting taxes nor any other important matters.
  • The people that have started the rebellion can not claim that they are rebelling against a government that was imposed on them. It was them that voluntarily left their former homes and chose to live under what they call a "tyrannical" government.
  • Instead of attempting to send a letter of protest regarding their wish to, at least, have an administrator that was more likeable to them, they immediately decided to expel the appointed administrator and resist authority in a violent manner.
For those two things, and more, it is quite clear that the current situation in Florida is not the same as that in the former Thirteen Colonies when you started your rebellion against the United Kingdom.
We have also offered peaceful solutions. Despite the fact that the rebels should be judged, the Emperor is willing to offer amnesty to those that are rebelling against his rule as long as they desist in their belligerent attitude. Those that want to remain will have to accept the higher authority of the Emperor and its representatives on Florida. Those that wish so, may leave. But Florida shall remain part of the Empire.
 
To: Spain
From: The United States of America


Oh, yes, the Spanish Monarchy has been quite kind to these people, hoping to seek some sort of economic opportunity in Spanish lands. What is your response on the systematic killing of every man, woman and child in Jacksonville?

Rejecting an administrator is one thing, and requires a certain response. But the massacre and slaughter of dozens is by all means, disgusting. What did the innocents do? Were the children whispering bad things about your king? Did the women refuse to submit to your presumably disgusting soldiers? How about the men not involved in this rebellion? Were they not slave-like enough for you? The fact that you don't even offer any remark on it, aside from 'Well, it was everyone's fault' shames you to no end. Your soldiers are like animals, and your ministers evidently weren't trained how to handle them. No matter how much you argue, their is absolutely nothing you can say or do, short of letting these people at least hold a plebiscite, that will allow your actions to be forgiven.
 
To: Sweden
From: Poland


Really? Why would you send spys to our kingdom? We weren't seeking to cause trouble in your nation so why would you come cause trouble in ours? Plus our initial diplomacy to your nation wasn't answered.

To: Spain, USA
From: Poland


We have no involvement in Florida but I do have an idea. Maybe the USA could buy Florida from Spain. Everybody would win, and there wouldn't be any causalities. Just an idea.
 
From: Swedish Empire
To: Poland

We have no interest in enabling another lackey of Spanish tyranny. That land is not ours to give; go beg at Prussia.
 
OOC: Nice first update.

IC: To: Brandenburg
From: Burgundy


We hope that this inexplicable build-up of fortifications along our border does not signal any hostile intent on your part.

To: Poitou
From: Burgundy


Though Poitou is a Protestant nation, the arrest of numerous innocent Catholics within your borders is an unacceptable act. We would hope that all Catholics arrested over the past year would be released as a gesture of fairness and to prevent religious tensions throughout France.
 
To: Poland
From: The United States of America


Despite the fact that the land is not economically viable without American support, and that more Americans live there then Spaniards doesn't matter to the Spanish Empire. We have offered to buy it numerous times. They will not listen.
 
To: Spain, USA
From: Poland


We have no involvement in Florida but I do have an idea. Maybe the USA could buy Florida from Spain. Everybody would win, and there wouldn't be any causalities. Just an idea.

No no NO! Spain loses centuries of development for what? A few hold-loads of gold. And because of what? Some migrants refused to follow the laws of the land they migrated onto.

(Uh... this is Out of Character, just a different prespective... I'll go back to Afghanistan now)

@ EQ and Das, please answer Diplo and/or PM.
 
Charles. Crawl back into your hole, and fight off some NPCs.

From my understanding, this is a similar situation as with Texas and Mexico OTL. Not to mention, without American trade, or hell, American workers, these colonies would largely be profitless. Without American trade down the Mississippi, how much is New Orleans really worth?

EDIT: Is slavery still legal in Spanish lands? From my understanding, it is, but it's up in the air.
 
To: Sweden
From: Poland


Understood, but was the first part of your response referring to us?

To: Any nation neighboring us with coastline
From: Poland


We are wanting to purchase land that is connected to the Baltic Ocean.

To: Papacy
From: Poland


We have a proposal that I think would help us both out. We are wanting to pay you a certain amount of EP (10 max as of now). But in return we ask that you promise to use half of the EP we send you to help fund and/or build charities and orphanages in our nation.

To: The United States of America
From: Poland


Hrm, maybe have an election? Or buy the land BUT allow Spain to hold onto one or a couple port cities. But we don't have much right to speak about this since it doesn't involve us.

To: Polish Religious Minorities
From: Poland


As long as your not creating any trouble to our nation's and pope's rule we won't cause you trouble.
 
Charles. Crawl back into your hole, and fight of the NPCs.

From my understanding, this is a similar situation as with Texas and Mexico OTL. Not to mention, without American trade, or hell, American workers, these colonies would largely be profitless. Without American trade down the Mississippi, how much is New Orleans really worth?

Vietnam feels compelled to answer this poorly thought out statement.

How much are the lands near the Mississippi river worth if they do not send their goods south to New Orleans to be traded/shipped? Hardly profitable. The costs of moving those goods over land would be enormous compared to what it takes to ship them down to New Orleans. What you have are mutual benefits between your two nations. How much less trade would you bring in if you stopped trading with the Spanish colonies in the area? Even if you replaced the trade, it would be farther away, increasing transportation costs, and reducing overall profit.

However, we feel that Spain over reacted very harshly to Jacksonville. As I understand it, they through one person out of the town, and in response your murdered the whole lot of them. Shame on Spain. Then you roll over and threaten America for what you brought upon yourself by not adjusting to the people under your rule! The people of Vietnam, or at least those who care for such Western affairs, are speechless.
 
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