ALC Game 13 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Mansa Musa

Sisiutil

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All Leaders Challenge Pre-Game Show:
Game #13 - Mali/Mansa Musa




In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Mansa Musa, leader of Mali. This thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit that particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series. Just so we're clear, I'm playing with the Warlords expansion pack and the difficulty level will be Monarch. The speed is Epic, the map is Fractal. Here's the fact sheet:

Traits: Spiritual (No anarchy from civics/religion changes. Double production speed of Temples.) and Financial (+1 commerce on plots with 2 commerce.)
Starting Techs: Mining and the Wheel
Unique Unit: Skirmisher (Replaces Archer; Strength: 4, Movement: 1, Cost: 25; Unique Characteristics: 1-2 first strikes)
Unique Building: Mint (Replaces Forge; Cost: 120; Requires: Metal Casting; Unique Characteristics: +10% wealth)

We've all played against Mansa, and we all know he's the biggest tech whore in the game. He's a great tech trading partner, partly because he's usually the tech leader, and because he has the lowest (or highest, whatever) WFYABTA setting of all the Civ leaders. He's not usually much of a warmonger, but he's always a threat to win the space race.

So the big downside of playing as Mansa is doing without a great source of tech trades! :lol: Then again, we should be able to leverage his traits to get the tech lead ourselves. That's a worthwhile goal in most games, and we could look to play that up here, playing as a tech trader extraordinaire. However, we run the risk of WFYABTA with everyone else. :sad: Hopefully we won't care by the time that happens.

What more can you say about the Financial trait that hasn't already been said? No wonder they removed cheap banks from its benefits way back in one of the vanilla patches. The trait doesn't need any more help than what it already does. Of course I'm going to run a cottage economy--with Financial, you'd be nuts not to. We'll be looking to Financial to finance a lot of our research. That means we need good sites for commerce cities, and as early as possible. We may need to consider an early war if we're wallowing in hills and plains tiles while our neighbours are basking on grassy riverbanks.

Spiritual is one of my favourite traits. Some followers of these threads claim that I seem to like changing civics a little more often than I should. I can't imagine why. :confused: ;) Well, with Spiritual, the point is moot. It's like paraphrasing that old saying about the weather: if you don't like the civic, wait 5 turns. :D Seriously, though, we can implement beneficial civics as soon as they're available rather than waiting to change several at once. If we have to war in the mid-game, we can take advantage of queue-building units and then a quick, short change to the war civics for the additional XPs. Diplomatically, we could consider changing religions or civics for a diplomatic boost with another civ.

Based upon his traits, Mansa's one cheap building is the Temple, and I have an idea in mind to leverage this. Basically, we aim to build both the University of Sankore (which is historically appropriate, especially if it goes in Timbuktu!) and the Spiral Minaret (since Mansa was Muslim, thats appropos as well). This means all our temples become inexpensive science and gold contributors, as well as happy/culture boosters. I've tried this strat while playing as Ramesses to great effect, though I will grant he has an additional advantage in that he's Industrious; but maybe Mansa's teching capabilities will give us enough lead time to reach these two techs first and build the required wonders. Preserving a few forests for chopping wouldn't hurt either, and a source of stone, which accelerates the building of both wonders, would be invaluable. This strat means that Free Religion becomes a very unattractive civic until much later than usual. I usually change to Free Religion shortly after Scientific Method makes monasteries obsolete, to recover some of their research boost; if we pull off this strategy, we'd instead want to run religious civics until Computers obsoletes the two key wonders that are its foundation.

Now this brings us back to the starting techs. Mansa begins with two of the most useful starting techs in the game. However, they're not that great for founding a religion. Should we try to do that (since a religion for temples is key to the above strategy), or should we wait for a religion to spread to us peacefully, or should we just look to take a nearby holy city in an early war? I find with a civ that doesn't start with Mysticism that it's best to be opportunistic. If we get the pre-requisites and suddenly notice that, say, Hinduism or Judaism still haven't been founded, then let's go for it; or if that puny weakling Gandhi went and founded Buddhism and he's right next door, let's go kick his butt.

But back to the techs. The Wheel gives Workers something to do right out of the gate and means we can hook up resources ASAP. It also gives us one of three techs we need for the early barb-thumper, Chariots. It's also a pre-requisite for Pottery, a tech we're going to want very early on for a Finanacial civ.

Mining is one of my favourite techs to start with since it gives us a head start on Bronze Working, one of the most powerful techs in the game. And if we start near gold, silver, or gems, so much the better (though gems are usually in jungle and therefore not accessible until Iron Working).

But discussing Mansa's starting techs inevitably leads us to a discussion of his Unique Unit, the Skirmisher, because we need Archery for it and we don't start with Hunting. Now Hunting is a pre-requisite for Animal Husbandry as well, so having it makes that tech cheaper, more so if we also acquire Agriculture first. If we luck out and start near furs, ivory, or deer, that justifies researching Hunting even more. I'm coming to appreciate Archers more as time goes on, and Skirmishers are essential a super-Archer--one additional strength point and an additional first strike chance makes them a very formidable early-game unit. I wouldn't want to rush anyone with them... or would I? Your opinions are, as always, appreciated.

So what this leads to is, I hope, a discussion of the early tech path. Much will depend upon what's available at the start, but I'm thinking of nabbing Hunting first, then Archery, so I can build Scouts and the UU. My first build may be a Worker to give Hunting time to finish so I don't build any Warriors. It would be nice to start next to an oasis, wouldn't it?

Oh, and let's not forget the Unique Building! Mints make one of the best buildings in the game even better. The Forge boosts production and, with one or more precious metal resources, happiness as well; Mints give a +10% commerce boost, which obviously dove-tails well with Mansa's Financial trait. Another early goal may be the Oracle for a Metal Casting slingshot.

Let's take a long-term view towards victory conditions. Since he lacks characteristics that lend themselves to warmongering, I'm anticipating a more peaceful game (though of course I'm not ruling out war completely). This could lead us to one of the more peaceful victory conditions to which Mansa is well-suited: Diplomatic, Space, or Cultural. Much may depend upon the start and any neighbours, of course. Based on Mansa's teching abilities, my own inclination is towards a space race win, but we'll see where we find ourselves.

The more I think about it, the more Mansa sounds like an awesome leader to use. I get the impression that he's pretty popular, but I haven't tried him yet, and I'm really looking forward to it!
 
Go for huge tech lead and peacefully win the spacerace. You need to play like the real Mansa Musa that we all know (and hate and love at the same time). Plus, his traits are a great match for your play. The financial helps in an obvious way, and with spiritual you can have fun with all of the civics switches that you love without causing people to comment on your disregardence of anarchy time. We all know that you love those prebuild then switch to military civics and churn out units strategies. Now you can use them again without suffering anarchy.
 
The best thing about playing a Spiritual leader is you'll hear no complaints from the peanut gallery about how you're always changing civics like summer fashions. ;)

Another early goal may be the Oracle for a Metal Casting slingshot.
I was just about to suggest the same thing, especially since you start with two of the pre-req's for Metal Casting. The Sankore/Minaret combination also sounds like a powerful combo -- add Angkor Wat to the mix, and you'll become a spiritual powerhouse! Of course, that means you'll be spamming lots and lots of Great Prophets, but if you're intent on founding lots of religions -- or capturing Holy Cities from neighbors, if you like :lol: -- this could actually become an advantage.

Skirmishers are...well, they kinda suck, especially since you don't even start with Hunting. They make great barbarian defenders, and they're strong enough to take out cities that haven't had time to build up any culture defense, but you won't be capturing any AI capitals with them. On the bright side, they're dirt cheap to build, so you can overwhelm the enemy with sheer force of numbers.
 
Thanks, Sisutil, for doing this series. I've lurked through the last two and learned alot.

I was wondering if you might take a little bit of time this time to describe in more detail some of the tactical decisions you make--perhaps just the taking of one cirt along the way. My own attempts at war tend to get bogged down, so I am interested to see what principles you use to keep things moving so well (especially in a game without city raider samurai).

At the same time, I know that too much detail would turn this into a chore, so my feelings won't get hurt if you send me on my way. But I've seen very little written on successful tactics beyond general guidelines for stack composition and the basic "defensive ground" principle.
 
Now this brings us back to the starting techs. Mansa begins with two of the most useful starting techs in the game.

** cough **

You have got to be kidding me. Prior to the founding of your second city, do you really ever find yourself thinking "gee, if only I could build a road, my civ would be so much stronger?" Bah, the closest you ever get to it is "well, there's nothing immediately useful to do, but I can burn to turns now on a road that will start paying off in about 40 turns or so.

Maybe on higher levels, when the ability to connect a happy resource gives you an extra size early. Maybe. Here, no. You just don't get to leverage the extra happy fast enough to make a real difference.

It always ends up looking to me as though his synergies are a complete mess. You start with the wheel, but your uber unit doesn't actually require connecting a resource. You need hunting as a pre-requisite, but are you really going to delay your build in progress to push out a Scout, or are you going to scout late (dramatically lowering your odds of hut rushing). Furthermore, once you've got hunting, you are one tech away from Chariots. And an early Bronze Working opens the possibility of axes. So what are you planning to do with these skirmishers, again?

Of course, you do have a nice lift along the Metal Casting line, and Spiritual gives you an excuse to sprint up to the Oracle (though you may get tempted by Code of Laws instead, depending on the available metals).


Keep in mind that the mint gives a 10% boost to wealth, not commerce - that will impact the kinds of juggling you'll want to be doing with the slider.
 
About the Sankore/Mineret combo, look at aelf's EMC #2 where he played as Ramsese.
 
I was wondering if you might take a little bit of time this time to describe in more detail some of the tactical decisions you make--perhaps just the taking of one cirt along the way. My own attempts at war tend to get bogged down, so I am interested to see what principles you use to keep things moving so well (especially in a game without city raider samurai).

You might want to get a good look at Sisutil's Stack of Doom guide (link in his signature) it helps to choose what troops to build and how to manage them on the battlefield.
 
As for victory conditions, I would think that cultural will be the best course. As stated, Mansa is the tech whore and great trade partner, with him removed, so-to-speak I think the best chance is for cultural.

If your aim is for the Spinaret, religious buildings are a must so the inherent cultural boost is built in. With Financial you can run the culture slider high on the backs of the cottage economy.
 
Thanks, Sisutil, for doing this series. I've lurked through the last two and learned alot.

I was wondering if you might take a little bit of time this time to describe in more detail some of the tactical decisions you make--perhaps just the taking of one cirt along the way. My own attempts at war tend to get bogged down, so I am interested to see what principles you use to keep things moving so well (especially in a game without city raider samurai).

At the same time, I know that too much detail would turn this into a chore, so my feelings won't get hurt if you send me on my way. But I've seen very little written on successful tactics beyond general guidelines for stack composition and the basic "defensive ground" principle.
That's a good request and I'll keep it in mind, as I anticipate fighting at least one early war. In the meantime, if you want to see an example of this (with another early UU, the awesome Egyptian War Chariot), check the Hatshepsut game (link in my sig below).
** cough **

You have got to be kidding me. Prior to the founding of your second city, do you really ever find yourself thinking "gee, if only I could build a road, my civ would be so much stronger?" Bah, the closest you ever get to it is "well, there's nothing immediately useful to do, but I can burn to turns now on a road that will start paying off in about 40 turns or so.

Maybe on higher levels, when the ability to connect a happy resource gives you an extra size early. Maybe. Here, no. You just don't get to leverage the extra happy fast enough to make a real difference.

It always ends up looking to me as though his synergies are a complete mess. You start with the wheel, but your uber unit doesn't actually require connecting a resource. You need hunting as a pre-requisite, but are you really going to delay your build in progress to push out a Scout, or are you going to scout late (dramatically lowering your odds of hut rushing). Furthermore, once you've got hunting, you are one tech away from Chariots. And an early Bronze Working opens the possibility of axes. So what are you planning to do with these skirmishers, again?

Of course, you do have a nice lift along the Metal Casting line, and Spiritual gives you an excuse to sprint up to the Oracle (though you may get tempted by Code of Laws instead, depending on the available metals).


Keep in mind that the mint gives a 10% boost to wealth, not commerce - that will impact the kinds of juggling you'll want to be doing with the slider.
Regarding the Wheel: it's just that in any early game when I don't start with The Wheel, I wish I did. "Great! I've finished BW and revealed copper. My second city can claim it and then I can produce Axes. Now to research Mysticism and get Stonehenge going... Oh, crap! I have to research the Wheel--and the barbs are on their way!" It's just so crucial for hooking up cities and resources that I consider starting with it to be a definite boost. It's certainly better, in my estimation, than starting with Fishing, though you're right, with Mansa, it would be nice to start with Hunting.

In an off-line game I might forgo the UU for the most part unless I get very lucky with huts. This being an ALC, however, we want to see how to best make use of the UU and determine if the diversion for its tech is worth it.

Here's another way to look at it. In the previous game, I also went after Archery early on, as several people urged me to do. Why? To leverage the Protective trait ASAP, which gave me Protective Archers. Those units got Drill 1 and City Garrison 1 for free (as well as Aggressive's free Combat I, but they don't get that with other Protective leaders), and they did a terrific job of holding off all the barbarians. All told, then, in the Tokugawa game, Archery was a worthwhile early tech target.

So. Do a numeric comparison between a Protective Archer and a Skirmisher (and knowing you, VoU, I'm sure you will and hope you do). I think you'll find they're remarkably similar. (Granted, some of the PAs accumulated several promotions and got upgraded throughout the game, but the Skirmisher could still be very useful in the crucial early game, and could likewise be upgraded to Crossbows, Longbows, gunpowder units, etc.) So if we didn't neglect Protective Archers with Toku, I don't think we can neglect Skirmishers with Mansa.

Long and short, I'm still leaning on researching Hunting and Archery to start. If Skirmishers mean we don't need BW or AH right away, it gives us flexibility for whatever else we want to research.

I think a MC slingshot is worthwhile unless there's an absolute dearth of precious metals. I'll be keeping an eye out for them, and for stone, and intending to jump on those almost as much as the early strategic resources.

Good point about the commerce/wealth difference with the forges--I'll keep that in mind and we'll see how it plays out in the game.
You might want to get a good look at Sisutil's Stack of Doom guide (link in his signature) it helps to choose what troops to build and how to manage them on the battlefield.
Nice to see my SoD guide actually getting a recommendation! :D It seems to be the unwanted bastard child of my strat article offspring. :sad:
 
** cough **

You have got to be kidding me. Prior to the founding of your second city, do you really ever find yourself thinking "gee, if only I could build a road, my civ would be so much stronger?" Bah, the closest you ever get to it is "well, there's nothing immediately useful to do, but I can burn to turns now on a road that will start paying off in about 40 turns or so.

Maybe on higher levels, when the ability to connect a happy resource gives you an extra size early. Maybe. Here, no. You just don't get to leverage the extra happy fast enough to make a real difference.

It always ends up looking to me as though his synergies are a complete mess. You start with the wheel, but your uber unit doesn't actually require connecting a resource. You need hunting as a pre-requisite, but are you really going to delay your build in progress to push out a Scout, or are you going to scout late (dramatically lowering your odds of hut rushing). Furthermore, once you've got hunting, you are one tech away from Chariots. And an early Bronze Working opens the possibility of axes. So what are you planning to do with these skirmishers, again?

Of course, you do have a nice lift along the Metal Casting line, and Spiritual gives you an excuse to sprint up to the Oracle (though you may get tempted by Code of Laws instead, depending on the available metals).


Keep in mind that the mint gives a 10% boost to wealth, not commerce - that will impact the kinds of juggling you'll want to be doing with the slider.
Stack support, naturally. 4 strength means they can actually be useful for more than sitting on a hill looking scary. Perfect, cheap anti-barb unit and superb fog-buster that let's you save hammers on fog-busting to be put towards better things.

I agree about the starting techs...well, about Wheel, at least. The only good thing about it is that's one of the more expensive early techs. Let's cross our fingers and hope for beavers, deers, or elephants to spur us to hunting and make The Wheel semi-useful early.

As for strategy...well, Mansa Musa WAS so wealthy that he gave out so much gold on his hajj to Mecca that the price of gold was depressed for decades all along his route....or so they say. So Spiral Minaret and other cash-cow wonders make sense, and Sankore just fits as Mali's very own wonder, as well as offering rare GS GPPs, aside from its good bonus. But we can get into specifics once we see the start position...
 
All victory conditions are open with Manny. All of them.

The starting position may hold some keys though.

I see a few different paths:

1. Masonry - GW - Oracle to MC if you have stone - Mints.

2. Hunting - AH (chariots) - Mathematics to Currency

3. Pottery - Math - Construction/Currency (my favorite). This can be either peaceful or warmonger.

Hmm .... let's start an office pool and see who can guess when Sisiutil will launch his first war. :)
 
** cough **

You have got to be kidding me. Prior to the founding of your second city, do you really ever find yourself thinking "gee, if only I could build a road, my civ would be so much stronger?" Bah, the closest you ever get to it is "well, there's nothing immediately useful to do, but I can burn to turns now on a road that will start paying off in about 40 turns or so.
The biggest advantage of starting with The Wheel is you don't have to waste time researching it later.

It always ends up looking to me as though his synergies are a complete mess. You start with the wheel, but your uber unit doesn't actually require connecting a resource. You need hunting as a pre-requisite, but are you really going to delay your build in progress to push out a Scout, or are you going to scout late (dramatically lowering your odds of hut rushing). Furthermore, once you've got hunting, you are one tech away from Chariots. And an early Bronze Working opens the possibility of axes. So what are you planning to do with these skirmishers, again?
Not to mention, Manny is Spiritual but doesn't start with Mysticism, so forget about chasing an early religion...unless you start with two oasis tiles in your BFC. :crazyeye:

As for doing a Metal Casting slingshot, the main reason is to generate an early Great Engineer to rush the Pyramids, plus giving your city extra hammers to build other Wonders. Mansa's UB wealth bonus is just gravy!
 
I really can't see a great amount of benefit from the Pyramids in this situation. Although they are indeed very powerful for specialists with Representation, we are obviously going for a CE with Financial. I can see that using them for Hereditary Rule would be good, but Monarchy is not that far away. The benefit would be see with rushing the GL in an area without much production but a lot of food. This would help a GP farm start, as buildings can be whipped pretty easily, but Wonders are way too expensive. Plus it would leave any forests for extra health, or chopping the GP farm buildings.
 
If you're looking at a Oracle/MC slingshot, you can always consider the colossus if your start lands you on a narrow strip of land. The Great Lighthouse is also pretty nice in this situation. This, of course, is getting a little wonder happy. There will be decisions to make in boosting the finances.

Something else to consider is pacifism, using a GS to pop philo and running mass scientists under caste system in your GPF. Or, use the GS to pop paper to get a real early jump on the U of S.

Has anyone considered using Caste system to run merchants? In doing this, you could keep the science slider very high and enjoy the versatility of the Great Merchants. They can pop some nice techs that will have an immediate benefit to a financial civ. The trade route money is nice and there not all that bad to settle either.
 
Id like to see an ALC with raging barbs on. I know it really hurts the AI though. With Skirmishers, you could rack up the promotions and get a good start towards Heroic Epic.
 
Wow, number 13? Should be interesting... ;)

A couple of things: I'm not convinced about the Oracle -> Metal Casting slingshot. Sure, you'll get to build mints, but how many will you actually build? They're very expensive and you're not Industrious. You'll also probably chop the Oracle so even that city will have problems getting the mint early. You're also quite unlikely to have an early religion, so their wealth bonus won't help you much unless you play a lot with the slider. I'm not very fond of that, don't know about you.

Sure, spiritual gives cheap temples, but they won't be worth much until Paper and University of Sankore. You've got plenty of time to build them.

I'd say your best chance lies with the financial trait. Lots of riverside cities with lots of cottages.

Not sure what tech you should start with, but in my games whenever I get Mining I go for Bronze Working. Early Axes are just too much fun to pass, even if you have to delay getting your UU. You're literally one tech away from Axemen, I'd say that's something you have to take advantage of. If you get copper for your second city and have a religious civ nearby then that's your religion and cheap temples right there. Just "convert" his cities to your side.

-----

I was wondering if you might take a little bit of time this time to describe in more detail some of the tactical decisions you make--perhaps just the taking of one cirt along the way. My own attempts at war tend to get bogged down, so I am interested to see what principles you use to keep things moving so well (especially in a game without city raider samurai).

You might want to get a good look at Sisiutil's Stack of Doom guide (link in his signature) it helps to choose what troops to build and how to manage them on the battlefield.

willpax, apart from Sisiutil's excellent article, if you want you can take a look at my "Great Generals test game" in my signature. I've tried to describe the battles I've fought so far in fine detail, since my focus in that game is mostly on war.
 
Regarding the pursuit of an early religion, I'd say it's best to avoid chasing Buddhism or Hinduism, but getting to Judaism might be an option. Or push along to Confucianism (since even with the Financial trait in place, you'll want Courthouses at some point).

If you are planning to build Spiral Minaret, a possibility could be doing what few people do, and that's aggressively pursuing Divine Right to get Islam founded.

As far as the starting techs go, since Pottery requires The Wheel, and Pottery is a priority for Mansa, The Wheel is therefore a good tech to have. Civs who aren't financial don't need Wheel as urgently unless the land calls for heading to Pottery quickly.
 
The biggest advantage of starting with The Wheel is you don't have to waste time researching it later.
That's what I said. I was simply more verbose. As usual.
Not to mention, Manny is Spiritual but doesn't start with Mysticism, so forget about chasing an early religion...unless you start with two oasis tiles in your BFC. :crazyeye:
You'd be surprised. Twice now in off-line Ramesses games something like this has happened to me: "Okay, I have Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working, Pottery, Mysticism... what should I research next...? Holy Cats! No one's founded Hinduism yet!" :lol:
As for doing a Metal Casting slingshot, the main reason is to generate an early Great Engineer to rush the Pyramids, plus giving your city extra hammers to build other Wonders. Mansa's UB wealth bonus is just gravy!
Forges/Mints are good for several other things, and MC makes for a great trading tech. The Pyramids are usually overly ambitious, I find.
If you're looking at a Oracle/MC slingshot, you can always consider the colossus if your start lands you on a narrow strip of land. The Great Lighthouse is also pretty nice in this situation. This, of course, is getting a little wonder happy. There will be decisions to make in boosting the finances.
I'm gradually conquering my wonder addiction. The problem with the two "water wonders" is that they both expire awfully early in the game.
Id like to see an ALC with raging barbs on. I know it really hurts the AI though. With Skirmishers, you could rack up the promotions and get a good start towards Heroic Epic.
Interesting idea. I don't know about this game, but maybe I'll try it for the next one.
Wow, number 13? Should be interesting... ;)
13 has always been a luck number for me. I was married on a Friday the 13th and just celebrated my 13th wedding anniversary last year.
A couple of things: I'm not convinced about the Oracle -> Metal Casting slingshot. Sure, you'll get to build mints, but how many will you actually build? They're very expensive and you're not Industrious. You'll also probably chop the Oracle so even that city will have problems getting the mint early. You're also quite unlikely to have an early religion, so their wealth bonus won't help you much unless you play a lot with the slider. I'm not very fond of that, don't know about you.

Sure, spiritual gives cheap temples, but they won't be worth much until Paper and University of Sankore. You've got plenty of time to build them.

I'd say your best chance lies with the financial trait. Lots of riverside cities with lots of cottages.
I usually build forges in almost every city. The boost to production and to happiness with the right resources are both invaluable, especially on Epic speed. Mints just make them more attractive. Still, a good point about the temples--I only build them where they're really needed (happiness, culture) until the U of S makes them more valuable.
Not sure what tech you should start with, but in my games whenever I get Mining I go for Bronze Working. Early Axes are just too much fun to pass, even if you have to delay getting your UU. You're literally one tech away from Axemen, I'd say that's something you have to take advantage of. If you get copper for your second city and have a religious civ nearby then that's your religion and cheap temples right there. Just "convert" his cities to your side.
Good point about BW, it's such a valuable early tech that it probably should be done early. What about Hunting -> BW -> Archery if there's a campable resource near the start, or BW first if there isn't?
 
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