When did ancient Egypt end and crappy Egypt begin?
- Thread starter Lonkut
- Start date
Reno
The Studio Ghibli Fanatic
Ancient Egypt ended to the collapse of Roman Empire, then Islam took over and well after the middle ages, Egypt began to deteriorate and weaken, mix in some Soviet influance and voila there we are in the present Egypt.
Gelion
Retired Captain
A very short but generally right description of Egyptian history. I'd say that ancient Egypt ended between arguably
Persian occupation - Alexander's Expedition or
Alexanders expedition - Roman Conquest (30 AD).
Egypt was relatively prosperous and developed country between 750 - 1400's. It fell back drastically in the last years of the Ottoman Empire and never got up again, like most of ME (got up as in up to the wrold level).
Also asking questions in this manner can get you in trouble with some Egyptians or Arabs on this forum, but there are not many...
Persian occupation - Alexander's Expedition or
Alexanders expedition - Roman Conquest (30 AD).
Egypt was relatively prosperous and developed country between 750 - 1400's. It fell back drastically in the last years of the Ottoman Empire and never got up again, like most of ME (got up as in up to the wrold level).
Also asking questions in this manner can get you in trouble with some Egyptians or Arabs on this forum, but there are not many...
Serutan
Eatibus Anythingibus
I would place the decline of Egypt at the same time as that of
the Ottoman Empire, of which Egypt was a part from the late
Middle Ages until the late 17th century or so...
the Ottoman Empire, of which Egypt was a part from the late
Middle Ages until the late 17th century or so...
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
They were conquered by the Neo-Assyrians, Persians, Hellenes, and finally the Romans which was the final death blow. I consider the Coptic Egyptians dissimilar enough from their forbears to warrant not being considered in the same vein as Classical Egypt. The invasion of Islam was the last nail in the coffin, not only killing any further advancement of culture derived from the native peoples, but also making sure it would be disparaged as pagan and therefore worthless, corrupting even.
Verbose
Deity
I wouldn't draw the line between "great" and "crappy" when Egypt is concerned. (If so Egypt was crap from around 1000 BC, constantly invaded and occupied and lagging behind technologically.)
BUT, Ancient Egypt was ended by christianity. The Egyptian religion was what defined the Egyptians. And the more they were conquered, the more militant they became about it. So their national identity was tied to the religion.
Change the religion, and sudddenly there was no more ancient Egyptian culture. It had mutated into the christian, coptic identity and culture.
BUT, Ancient Egypt was ended by christianity. The Egyptian religion was what defined the Egyptians. And the more they were conquered, the more militant they became about it. So their national identity was tied to the religion.
Change the religion, and sudddenly there was no more ancient Egyptian culture. It had mutated into the christian, coptic identity and culture.
Verbose
Deity
Don't forget the Nubians! And the Libyans!Mescalhead said:
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
Right, right. But it's like the principle with China and the Mongols; the Nubians and Lybians ruled as Egyptians. Their respective cultures could in no way compete with their subjects', so I don't believe that it led to any dilution of Egyptian culture. The nations that conquered Egypt in the last century B.C.E. had a cultural eminence with which to damage the virility of the native Egyptian culture.
Verbose
Deity
Your right. The Libyans (26th dynasty etc.) quickly became "good Egyptians". The Nubians (27th) seem to have kept more of their pecularities, but they were already heavily influenced by Egyptian culture when they turned up. I seem to remember that the Nubian pharao Piankhy actually felt that he was "liberating" Egypt from blasphemers who has strayed from the proper path of Amun-worship. He was just restoring order, Egyptian fashion.Mescalhead said:
And the Nubians carried on worshipping to the Egyptian god, when the Egyptians were all christians.
Terje
The Red Semi-Menace
Slave using country-> crappy country.
ergo Egypt -> crappy country...
ergo Egypt -> crappy country...
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
A very underestimated notion.
Dragonlord
Fantasy Warlord
Terje said:
That's a novel way of looking at history... so all the ancient cultures, including Egypt, Rome, Greece, Persia, Babylon etc. were 'crappy'? All ancient cultures were based largely on slavery and that continued into the Middle Ages in most parts of the world (all right, call them 'serfs' instead of slaves.. small difference!).
Slavery wasn't really abolished until it was made economically obsolete - first by the horsecollar, of all things, which made using horses/mules cheaper than using human labor, then of course by machines like the steam engine.
While I'm no apologist of slave labor, it was prevalent in ancient times and was not seen as evil, just a normal part of life.. if you got captured in war, for instance, you were automatically either a slave or dead... guess what most people preferred?
Inhalaattori
Emperor
US welfare is also partly build with slavery.
1700s- 1800s: black slaves working in cotton fields
1900s- 2000s: children working in 3th world countries for american companies, in practise without salary.
1700s- 1800s: black slaves working in cotton fields
1900s- 2000s: children working in 3th world countries for american companies, in practise without salary.
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
No, what he is saying is that if you invite slavery into your nation, it will eventually bite you in the ass. What good has ever come out of slavery except for the slave owner? We still have to deal with its after effects.Dragonlord said:
wurkwurk
Chieftain
Prolly when the Assyrians invaded and robbed the last native-born Pharaoh from his throne, after that, it was foreign rule till the Fatamids in the end of the European Dark ages.
Terje
The Red Semi-Menace
I just don't have much respect for people who can treat other people like that, even if that was "the way it was done" back then. So I wouldn't flinch much if anybody called them crappy.Dragonlord said:
Slavery is an abomination against humanity, no matter if you call the system a slave system, feudalism (serfdom) or stalinism. It's a way for mighty people to take credit for what other people have accomplished, to put it in an awkward and unprecise way.
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
Terje said:
Oh, I thought you were making the case that, even beyond the moral argument, slavery will eventually contribute to an economic decline or social crisis in any nation foolish enough to utilize it.
SeleucusNicator
Diadoch
Egypt didn't actually have slavery in the sense that we think of slavery. Egypt had a sort of draft for workers. You spent half the year working on your own farms, then, when the floods came, you were conscripted to work on public monuments at what not. This is not at all like slavery, where you spend your entire time doing your master's bidding.
SeleucusNicator
Diadoch
Inhalaattori said:
Guess what, buddy: the products you buy are made in those conditions too.
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