Byzantium Change Idea

In order to help assure Byzantium gets a religon (and thereby can use it's special ability) I was thinking of the following change.

Get rid of one of the UU. Add a UB.

Church - (replaces shrine) -25% construction time (stacks with Piety for -75% bonus), 0 upkeep

I dunno which unit to lose. I think Dromons perhaps because they cannot take cities which sorta makes your navy suck.

Well Byzantium's 'flavor' is not about getting a pantheon quick (like the Celts), but rather revolves around the religion that comes afterwards. With that in mind, any changes like you suggest would have to come into play during Classical. Also any changes that are made don't want to be stepping on the toes of the Piety tree because the last thing needed is more reason not to take those particular policies.

IMO, the UA is very powerful if you can get it rolling, so I don't think that making it a sure thing is what's required. Rather they need something to fall back on if they fail. Perhaps adding something to the UA such as "religion spreads to friendly cities twice as fast". It's a double-edged sword if you are trying to get your own religion rolling, but it allows you to benefit more quickly from foreign religions if you don't.

The UA is fine as it is. Removing the Dromon would remove one of the most powerful UUs in the game. Nobody else has ranged naval power at that time.

If you want to play Byzantium, them you have to work for a religion. Only very rarely will you fail to get one if you actually work for it. On anything less than Immortal, you're all but guaranteed a religion even if you don't work for it.

i like it as it is but if it was changed i still like the idea that cataphracts should generate +1 faith per turn

Well one of the problems with the UA is that AI Theodora often fails to get a religion. My little theory is that it has something to do with the low expansion flavor. While Theodora has a 7 for religion, she only has a 4 for expansion and a 6 for wonders. Expansion and wonders are the most reliable way to get religions and her scores in these areas just don't seem to be high enough to get it done. Maybe the national wonder they're adding for faith will help out a little with this? It's always sad to see Theodora failing to take advantage of the Byzantine UA, but I'll agree that we don't need yet another civ with faith bonuses.

I don't know, what if Byzantium gets the founder belief and the ability to add an additional enhancer belief if it conquers and holds a holy city? If we're going to propel Byzantium into the OP crowd with Korea, Austria, Mongolia, etc., we might as well make it fun.

Minor quibbles: First off, it shouldn't be a church. Churches aren't remotely unique to Byzantium. Basilica would be better. Second, there already is a problem with an early medieval civilization getting classical era stuff, an ancient building seems a bit ridiculous (so it should at least be a Temple). I'm not sure a cheaper religious building fits with the Byzantines, but that's not really the point.

I think the main concern I have there is ability dilution. The Celts are supposed to have an advantage of cheap early faith. Ethiopia has it too through a monument that gives culture. The Maya have a unique shrine improvement. The Byzantines would seem to be stealing all their thunder and would lose the flexibility of a unit while at it (the Dromon is good for giving naval support to a land attack, so an ancient bombarding ship is a good thing).

My suggestion has always been to give them a free Great Prophet at Theology. Rather than let them choose their bonus ability right away, require that it need a separate great prophet. That way, you can earn your own great prophet to found the religion and use the free one to get the Byzantine ability or, if you're too slow on faith, you can still get a religion (you have to play very poorly to either not have enough faith or reach theology too slowly to get a religion). This way they don't lose a unique unit and they don't steal anyone's thunder too much (the closest is the Maya, but the free great person they get is more likely to be a scientist or engineer).

Every time I've played as Byzantium I've started near a faith producing natural wonder and/or lots of wine/incense. This scenario has always led to a dominant religion. Am I just lucky? Have others started in a poor faith producing location?

Gamewizard said:

Every time I've played as Byzantium I've started near a faith producing natural wonder and/or lots of wine/incense. This scenario has always led to a dominant religion. Am I just lucky? Have others started in a poor faith producing location?

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I'd say you're just lucky. AFAIK, there's no such thing as a starting bias for natural wonders.

Well Firaxis isn't gonna go and scrap one of the UUs. Honestly, Byzantium is fine anyway, they just need to tone down the AI's early bonuses on high difficulties (Immortal/Deity) where the AI has too big of an advantage in getting a religion.

The problem isn't the UA, or even the UU's, it's their timing. They should be medieval. As ancient/classical units you don't get to build them cos you're spending your time focusing on religion (or you're not, which is why you don't rate the UA). Dromon could easily be a kickass galleas (even if I'd lament the loss of ancient naval ranged). The cataphract feels right as a horseman, but could probably survive light historical scrutiny as a knight instead.

If the units were medieval this'd actually provide good synergy cos you can set up your religion base, then use your UU's in the medieval to carve the dense wide low pop empire that's required to spread religion super fast.

with the temple national wonder it should probably become easier to get a religion on deity if you rush shrines/settlers/etc

patsfan454 said:

with the temple national wonder it should probably become easier to get a religion on deity if you rush shrines/settlers/etc

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Not sure about this, national temple wonder will require temples in all cities (and Byzantium does best wide/ICS). By the time you do this and build the NW, you'll basically already be at the last train home for founding a religion (for deity anyway), so it'll not be that useful for Byzantium. I think it'll work better for a very heavy missionary/GP strategy from Ethiopia/Maya/Celts, or for a tall normal civ that still wants a religion.

edit: Actually it could be good if Byzantium wanted to stay tall and do a double spread enhancer with the per follower culture boost founder. At least up to emperor anyway.

Louis XXIV said:

Minor quibbles: First off, it shouldn't be a church. Churches aren't remotely unique to Byzantium. Basilica would be better. Second, there already is a problem with an early medieval civilization getting classical era stuff, an ancient building seems a bit ridiculous (so it should at least be a Temple). I'm not sure a cheaper religious building fits with the Byzantines, but that's not really the point.

I think the main concern I have there is ability dilution. The Celts are supposed to have an advantage of cheap early faith. Ethiopia has it too through a monument that gives culture. The Maya have a unique shrine improvement. The Byzantines would seem to be stealing all their thunder and would lose the flexibility of a unit while at it (the Dromon is good for giving naval support to a land attack, so an ancient bombarding ship is a good thing).

My suggestion has always been to give them a free Great Prophet at Theology. Rather than let them choose their bonus ability right away, require that it need a separate great prophet. That way, you can earn your own great prophet to found the religion and use the free one to get the Byzantine ability or, if you're too slow on faith, you can still get a religion (you have to play very poorly to either not have enough faith or reach theology too slowly to get a religion). This way they don't lose a unique unit and they don't steal anyone's thunder too much (the closest is the Maya, but the free great person they get is more likely to be a scientist or engineer).

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I agree with most of this post, Byzantium shouldn't be buffed to be just another religion civ with an added bonus.

Not sure about the GP idea though. I'm not sure but I think you're suggesting that Byzantium gets their bonus along with their enhancer with their second prophet.

Firstly, with a liberty finisher GE on the HS this'd mean they'd get their souped religion without a single faith point after the pantheon, and all the faith pantheons'd be a lot more boring again, I love having to use all the different things at my disposal to get a religion asap with Byzantium.

If you're suggesting the bonus be on a completely seperate GP (i.e. the third one) this'd actually weaken Byzantium, cos I love taking religious texts at 1000BC (when everything works out). This gives a huge 'first out of the gate' advantage in spread that would be lost (remember both 'free' GP and HS add to the cost of the next GP so it'd still come out after 500 faith, the same cost as the first 2 prophets normally).

I quite like the idea of ring fencing one religion for Byzantium, though it might be slightly unfair on other civs, who'd all be competing for one less religion spot. Other than that seems good. Anyone else see any flaws?

Crafty Bison said:

The problem isn't the UA, or even the UU's, it's their timing. They should be medieval. As ancient/classical units you don't get to build them cos you're spending your time focusing on religion (or you're not, which is why you don't rate the UA). Dromon could easily be a kickass galleas (even if I'd lament the loss of ancient naval ranged). The cataphract feels right as a horseman, but could probably survive light historical scrutiny as a knight instead.

If the units were medieval this'd actually provide good synergy cos you can set up your religion base, then use your UU's in the medieval to carve the dense wide low pop empire that's required to spread religion super fast.

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I think this is right on the money here. The dromon being ancient era and the cataphract being classical era makes it difficult to take advantage of all of Theodora's abilities. She has no innate ability to generate faith, which means either you're lucky (nearby religious state, nearby faith wonder, etc), or you have to really work at creating your religion.

There would be nothing wrong with this if it weren't for having such early units. While they are very good units, it's very difficult to use them if you're so focused at creating and spreading your religion. This is even more true on the higher difficulties. If the Dromon and Cataphract replaced the Galleass and the Knight, then you'd have time to make use of them. By then your religion will have been set up and spreading.

In my experience I either focus all on Religion in order to select good beliefs before they're all taken, or I focus on her units and make war. It's very hard to do both; do any other Civs have this issue? Compare to the Celts who are all but guaranteed to not only get the first pantheon, but have a great shot at the first religion; they get free faith just for being near forests, no buildings required. And one of their units earns faith on kills. Byzantium may have one more belief, but what's the point if it isn't that great-- compared to the Celts who almost all the time can get exactly what they want, first.

Part of the problem is how fast even non-religious civilizations are able to found a Religion on Immortal. Not only do they have faster faith generation, start with free techs, build faster, but the more pantheons are founded the more yours will cost (and set you back more because you lose all that faith). And then when you finally get to found a religion, you're lucky if there's anything left that's even that useful to you.

Another problem is that Theodora's units and abilities are good, so buffs like giving her an early Great Prophet at Theology is probably too much. While her individual abilities and units are great, there's really no synergy at all between any of it. She may get a free belief of her choosing, but she has no boost to actually getting there and making sure she chooses something nice (and thus getting stuck with a poor unique ability). And her unique units have nothing to do with her UA either, and both come very early and directly clash with your ability to create a religion quickly.

So Theodora has a hodgepodge of nice stuff none of which work together at all.

"In my experience I either focus all on Religion in order to select good beliefs before they're all taken, or I focus on her units and make war. It's very hard to do both; do any other Civs have this issue?"

Nothing quite like this, though Ethiopia in particular faces quite a dire 'tall for UA and UU defence or wide for killer UB and religion' choice. Having said that they could go tall, take legalism and still be up there for a religion as is. Egypt has the 'tall for UA or wide for UB' choice too. I thought I'd find something similar with Sweden as a 'friends for GP points or war for GG's and GAd's' dilemna, but in practice this one's actually fine, you can do both. Can't think of any others off the bat. Incas (Tall UI and start bias, wide UA) or Persia (early rush or forever golden? tall or wide or puppet?), but with them it's more about picking which of the multitude of benefits suits you most, they're strong enough to cope with it. I haven't played them that much, but i still haven't figured out a strategy for Netherlands that I'm happy with for all their benefits.

I admit that I don't like the current implementation of religion as it is but the problem of Byzantium could easily be solved without adding new buildings.

1st - at 15 faith they'll get a pantheon regardless of number of pantheons or religions founded before that
2nd - at 200 faith they'll a choice of a prophet or saving the faith for later use. That prophet can found a religion regardless of number of existing religions.

This would make sure that their UA isn't totally worthless even when it's not a main focus or just bad luck.

G

Wait, Dromons are useless because they can't take cities?? Wow, just the opposite, it is great to have such an early ranged ship! They are monsters against coastal cities, but lets talk about the UA. I agree with the guy that said the UUs should be in medieval for more sinergy; a galeass + knight replacement would fit much better. Getting a free GP in theology... i don't know. Theology doesn't come that early, if you had to found a reigion by then, it would be kinda useless on really high difficulties, and BTW, by Reinassance (1 era later) the religion will be more expensive (ex.: units, buildings bought with faith) so their bonus wouldn't be so good.

I'm glad they are adding the Grand Temple, it might help Byzantium a lot. At least I hope so.

I also agree that moving one or both of the UU to the Medival Era would solve the problems with Byzantium getting an early religion.