Unofficial BTS 3.13 patch

yeah, i guess in the first screen, his farm on the lower left is getting the bonus from a bend. But i still think they would have fixed this if it wasn't intended. Real lumbermills relied on rivers for water power and transportation until the early 1900's. maybe the bonus should kick in after combustion.

Wodan said:

Watermills only go on "straight" river squares, not bends, and even then only if there is not already a watermill on the other side of the river.

Click to expand...

Really? I didn't know that - which shows how often I build watermills.

Bh

Bhruic said:

Really? I didn't know that - which shows how often I build watermills.

Bh

Click to expand...

Yes indeed Also, unless you're careful about the order you build them in, you can end up with a lot less of them than optimal.

I love mills, especially once you get the production and commerce bonuses and go state property (+1 food) - they're a great improvement.



...any idea about the issue I posted on the previous page?

In this case I would want to invoke the rule:
-a game should preferably behave as the average customer expects it to behave.

Every non-forested river tile gives a commerce bonus independent of the terrain improvement build on top of the tile, whether it is a river bend or not. Forested tiles give a commerce bonus once they are improved with a lumbermill or forest preserve. The description of the lumbermill and forest preserve doesn't mention a distinction between the river sides and river bends. Therefore, making a distinction between river sides and river bends will not be expected by the average gamer.

If the lumbermill were a river side improvement like the watermill (different graphical representation), then the gamer might expect different behaviour for river bends and river sides, but as it is not this behaviour is unexpected.

In this case, whether the commerce is added to river bends or not will not be a crucial gameplay change. It won't really effect the game. So there are no gameplay reasons to add the commerce bonus to river bends or not. The only reason to add it to river bends is to make the game behave consistent with gamer expectations.

edit: BTW, was this changed (actively or by accident) in BTS or in a patch? I can't remember this strange difference between river bends and river sides but also noticed it in my latest game.

^^ perfect analysis!

Well, the actual bonus in the XML for both Lumbermills and Preserves is:
<RiverSideYieldChange>

Since "riverside" requires a cardinal direction river square, I think this is certainly a FAD feature.

Bh

I just did a check in warlords 2.08 (I have a dual install because of a multiplayer game) and in that version forested river bends with a lumbermill also don't get a commerce bonus. So it has been functioning this way for a while it seems.

For me this just means that it hasn't been working in an intuitive way for a while but I can understand that changing this isn't first priority. Still, I can't find good arguments to let it function in this way besides 'it has always worked this way' which is an argument that is also true for most bugs.

Bhruic, I encountered a bug that suddendly cancles all the trade deals the player has. In the save below the bug should occur after pressing enter.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90346/AutoSave_AD-1400.CivBeyondSwordSave

Could you look into it, please?

Roland Johansen said:

I just did a check in warlords 2.08 (I have a dual install because of a multiplayer game) and in that version forested river bends with a lumbermill also don't get a commerce bonus. So it has been functioning this way for a while it seems.

Click to expand...

Ah... so maybe the way it works is that since the tile is still forested, i.e. it will not receive the river commerce bonus, the <RiverSideYieldChange>, which in ImprovementInfos.xml is unique to Lumbermills, gives those on River sides a +1 commerce, while not the bends, as just having an improvement there won't guarantee the commerce bonus.

So to bring this to a close, I came up with an easy way to check whether working as intended, but I am no where near my program. All that needs to be done is to place a camp on forested deer, or your choice, next to the river. This may be round about, but camps don't provide commerce bonuses for rivers if in the forest according to the xml files (guess its +1 hammer or +1 commerce choice). If it does, and does on a bend, then it should for lumbermills. If its not a bug, then its been interesting discussion nonetheless.

Also, I tried looking up the Forest Preserves for symmetry with lumbermills, but the code isn't in ImprovementInfos.

Renditelitan said:

So to bring this to a close, I came up with an easy way to check whether working as intended, but I am no where near my program. All that needs to be done is to place a camp on forested deer, or your choice, next to the river. This may be round about, but camps don't provide commerce bonuses for rivers if in the forest according to the xml files (guess its +1 hammer or +1 commerce choice). If it does, and does on a bend, then it should for lumbermills. If its not a bug, then its been interesting discussion nonetheless.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what that's suppose to prove. Riverside means that there is a river in one of the cardinal directions. A square in the "corner" of a river doesn't have a river in a cardinal direction, ergo it doesn't qualify as riverside. Now, if you want to have a debate about whether Lumbermills should only have riverside bonuses, that's a different kettle of fish. But it's very clear that what we have now is FAD (functioning as designed), as I already mentioned.

Also, I tried looking up the Forest Preserves for symmetry with lumbermills, but the code isn't in ImprovementInfos.

Click to expand...

Yes it is.

Bh

JosEPh_II said:

Here guys try this.

JosEPh

Click to expand...

Does this automatically install the patch?

Yes it is.

Bh

Click to expand...

Yup, there it is. The copy of the file I found on the webs must not have been the BTS one as promised. Oh well. And looking through the code, I agree it's working as intended.

chad187 said:

Does this automatically install the patch?

Click to expand...

Yes, it does.

Bhruic said:

I'm not sure what that's suppose to prove. Riverside means that there is a river in one of the cardinal directions. A square in the "corner" of a river doesn't have a river in a cardinal direction, ergo it doesn't qualify as riverside. Now, if you want to have a debate about whether Lumbermills should only have riverside bonuses, that's a different kettle of fish. But it's very clear that what we have now is FAD (functioning as designed), as I already mentioned.



Yes it is.

Bh

Click to expand...

Just wondered, why do ALL tiles touching a river (including ones in the "corner" i.e. non cardinal direction) qualify as riverside for the purposes of a levee, and thus receive the extra?

Is it different code?

It's because they don't require "riverside", they just require "river". Any square that touches a river is considered to be a "river" square, but only squares with a river in a cardinal direction (North/South/West/East) is considered "riverside".

As to why they made that distinction, I'm not sure.

Bh

Bhruic said:

It's because they don't require "riverside", they just require "river". Any square that touches a river is considered to be a "river" square, but only squares with a river in a cardinal direction (North/South/West/East) is considered "riverside".

As to why they made that distinction, I'm not sure.

Bh

Click to expand...

Thanks for explanation

Bhruic said:

It's because they don't require "riverside", they just require "river". Any square that touches a river is considered to be a "river" square, but only squares with a river in a cardinal direction (North/South/West/East) is considered "riverside".

As to why they made that distinction, I'm not sure.

Bh

Click to expand...

They needed the variable riverside for the watermills as the watermill graphic would probably look ridiculous on river bends. But why they made the distinction between the variables riversideyieldchange and riveryieldchange is beyond me. Seems quite arbitrary and in the case of lumbermills and forest preserves, a bit counter intuitive.

At least it's easy to change for whoever wants to change it. Just go into the file CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml and in the section for lumbermills and forest preserves change RiverSideYieldChange into RiverYieldChange. That should work (both variables exist).

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if the programmers at Firaxis accidentally used the variable RiverSideYieldChange instead of RiverYieldChange on lumbermills and forest preserves. I don't think a lot of deep thought went into this.

Roland Johansen said:

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if the programmers at Firaxis accidentally used the variable RiverSideYieldChange instead of RiverYieldChange on lumbermills and forest preserves. I don't think a lot of deep thought went into this.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't be surprised if you were right.

And Bhruic, what's your assessment on the spy stays on top (when attacking) issue?

i'm behind a few days on this thread, oops! i missed the whole thing about theocracy, and my name was even invoked . honestly, i find gifting missionaries kind of iffy no matter what civic the person i'm giving it to is in. why? because there's a limit of three at a time for a reason. i guess the reason is just to make my life more difficult, i dunno, but the fact is the devs put it there *giggle*.

if i'm trying to convert somebody overseas, putting 3 missionaries on a boat, unloading them and gifting them that same turn so i can start making 3 more right away back home is a heck of a lot quicker than doing the grunt work of delivering those guys to 3 individual cities. it's clever, but i've never seen the AI do it, so... for whatever another opinion is worth.

stuge said:

Bhruic, I encountered a bug that suddendly cancles all the trade deals the player has. In the save below the bug should occur after pressing enter.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90346/AutoSave_AD-1400.CivBeyondSwordSave

Could you look into it, please?

Click to expand...

stuge I tried out your save. Ignoring the trade issueI find the game crashes when I hit the toggle event list button. Were you using Bhruic's patch, 3.13 or unpatched?