Why is it difficult to take a city, even with much better tech?

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CivAddict2013

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May 4, 2013
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Okay here's what happened to me. I was in a game with Egypt and I'm trying to take down England. At this point, I have Riflemen and Cannons. England is still using Musketmen and Longbowmen.

But for some reason; I struggled to take the city. I did eventually take the city and England's capital once I got Artillery. I eventually ended up winning the game with a Science Victory.

But why do I still struggle against Renaissance units when I'm using Industrial units?

Did England have some sort of special promotion on their units or something?
 
Combat strength doesnt make much of a difference in terms of damage unless theres a huge amount and cities can stack to ridiculous combat strength easily. It takes a surprising large number of artillery shots to kill musketmen for example, which is pretty unrealistic.
 
Question said:
Combat strength doesnt make much of a difference in terms of damage unless theres a huge amount and cities can stack to ridiculous combat strength easily. It takes a surprising large number of artillery shots to kill musketmen for example, which is pretty unrealistic.
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Yes, very unrealistic. Realistically I would think; well I'm ahead in tech so I should have no problem. The main issue was that two Longbowmen and a city did so much damage to my Riflemen.

And I'm not talking a small army. I had to throw like 6-8 Riflemen with Artillery to take a city defended by two Longbowmen.
 
There comes a point when taking a city is easy. By then, the game is over.
 
I think the difference in difficulty in taking cities before and after artillery is a bit too large.

Terrain and city attack usually nullifies treb, cannon attacks etc
 
Being first to artillery can be a bit drastic (definitely an advantage you should press), but it's not so easy when you're not the first. They shoot back. You can be facing artillery, GW bombers, cavalry, and battleships. Can be overcome, but not a cakewalk.
 
One other problem is how long it takes to move units across the map.

For example it takes 3-4 turns to move units to the edge of your borders typically, even with roads (before the road bonus tech). Then when attacking you cant use roads (like, why? the roads are there, but we cant use them? thats silly) and have to use up 2 MP for any rough terrain (which is pretty much an entire turn for most units). If the enemy city is in rough terrain, it can take 5 turns just to get in melee range from his borders.

Even ships are really slow. Sailing from one side of the continent to the other (on continents setting) takes FOREVER, even with frigates + great lighthouse + exploration bonus. It really should not take 10-15 turns to launch a naval attack. Nor should it take 15 turns to get to a distant CS with modern units like submarines.
 
CivAddict2013 said:
Okay here's what happened to me. I was in a game with Egypt and I'm trying to take down England. At this point, I have Riflemen and Cannons. England is still using Musketmen and Longbowmen.

But for some reason; I struggled to take the city. I did eventually take the city and England's capital once I got Artillery. I eventually ended up winning the game with a Science Victory.

But why do I still struggle against Renaissance units when I'm using Industrial units?

Did England have some sort of special promotion on their units or something?
Click to expand...

Canons are a renaissance unit.

Riflemen are just upgraded muskets, a melee unit the worst kind to take a city. Longbow are a good UU.
I don't see your advantage as having "much better tech".

And then you have to take into account city placement and terrain and your tactics.
 
1 level higher tech.
Excessive melee units.
Fighting against a great UU.

Nothing em expected here.

Though the time shortly after crossbows arrive till bombs/artillery is generally when I find things are the slowest.
Try playing marathons or epic if the units are too slow compared to your tech.
 
Melee units ARE NOT designed to take cities. They were only to wait until the cities health is down enough. Artillery and above do the real damage to cities. Anything below it and you use Crossbowmen, Cannons, UU's such as Keshiks. Basically range and siege combat is your best friend.

When Civilization V comes into realism, there is barely any realism to it. For an example, according to Fraxis, it is okay to fire across the English/Irish channel. And use longbows from the bottom of England to fire at Paris.
 
CivAddict2013 said:
Yes, very unrealistic. Realistically I would think; well I'm ahead in tech so I should have no problem. The main issue was that two Longbowmen and a city did so much damage to my Riflemen.

And I'm not talking a small army. I had to throw like 6-8 Riflemen with Artillery to take a city defended by two Longbowmen.
Click to expand...

Completely the wrong force composition.
3 or 4 artillery with screen units is what you'd want to take a non coastal city.
 
English Longbowmen have 3 Range. It is best to attack England before they have Longbowmen or after you have Artillery. However, if you really must attack England at the height of her power...if Elizabeth's Cities are on the Coast you can use Range Upgraded Galleas or Frigates to get 3 Range Bombards and drop most City Defenses without being fired back at by a City (but watch our for those English Longbowmen on the shore).
 
And did the city have walls or a castle? Any wonders that increased city defense, or a pantheon or religion tenet with defensive things?

What was the city's defensive number?
 
Pay attention to the city strength number. It scales as more civs advance to later eras. It's not the tech that matters, but the number.

It does go both ways. I had an insane tech lead with Babylon. Had cannon before anyone else had Trebuchet. I was taking cities in two shots.
 
The tech lead you had wasn't that far away from the other civilizations it seems.. Other civilizations can take defensive technologies that allow defenses for their cities.. Cities with huge fortifications can easily defend itself against more advanced weapons sometimes.. Air units can often cause devastating damage to these fortifications because the fortification doesn't drop the air unit's attack. If the ai gets anti air defense though, it means that you weren't that much better in tech...
 
But still its very unrealistic for a city with longbowmen to defend against riflemen. Actually it makes no sense that longbows shoot farther than machine guns...
 
Question said:
But still its very unrealistic for a city with longbowmen to defend against riflemen. Actually it makes no sense that longbows shoot farther than machine guns...
Click to expand...

Historically, English Longbowmen were vigorously trained from Six Years of Age to develop incredible upper body strength. this was necessary to draw and fire the bow and ensure maximum effective range and accuracy. Longbowmen were competitive on the battlefield until the American Revolution despite modern conceits; when French officers discovered that training soldiers to use rifles was much faster than training Longbowmen. To illustrate why Longbowmen remained competitive, consider that a Longbow is estimated to have had a maximum accurate range of 370m in the Middle Ages whereas a Flintlock Rifle has a maximum accurate range of 140m. Improvements in Rifling added accuracy more than additional range. We did not see comparable or better accuracy at greater range that the Longbow until the early Industrial Era. But more to your point perhaps, the Gatling Gun had a range of 450m; admittedly with incredibly poor accuracy. It's saving grace was actually its incredibly high rate of fire. However, you are comparing a four man team artillery piece to a two man team Archery weapon and that is not a fair comparison really.
 
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