All Leaders Challenge Game 19: Sumer/Gilgamesh

ooh! ooh! Gooblah has an idea!

Okay. If we go with Sis's tech path, which is borrowed from johnny_rico, then...
WE CAN GRAB JUDAISM!
I'm not sure if Ragnar is spiritual, but he'll probably go for BW or IW, not a religion. Thus, If we do something like this:
AH/IW (dunno, up to Sisutil), Monotheism beeline, then Priesthood. We could theoretically chop the Oracle in 5 turns if two workers chop two forests simultaneously!

^^ Well, here's what mine look like.

I recommend the Logitech Marble Mouse trackball.

^^^ To follow up I was referring to two discounts:
1. researching Hunting when Ragnar already knows it
2. researching AH after knowing both Hunting and Agriculture

Edit: 1 is still unclear. What I mean is, if you research AH second, your neighbors are more likely to know it by then.

I'm not even that big a fan of pursuing the discounts in general, but in this case you have plenty of stuff to do and decent tiles to work before the cows. And of course, these particular discounts should be very small, I'd guess 10 or 20 beakers total. Hmm. Maybe the cows are better .

Gooblah said:

ooh! ooh! Gooblah has an idea!

Okay. If we go with Sis's tech path, which is borrowed from johnny_rico, then...
WE CAN GRAB JUDAISM!
I'm not sure if Ragnar is spiritual, but he'll probably go for BW or IW, not a religion. Thus, If we do something like this:
AH/IW (dunno, up to Sisutil), Monotheism beeline, then Priesthood. We could theoretically chop the Oracle in 5 turns if two workers chop two forests simultaneously!

Click to expand...

I had not indicated where to research monotheism on the tech path. As this is emperor, and IW is more of a concern than founding a religion, I can't see Sis possibly grabblng Judaism. Perhaps Ragnar will be kind enough to found for him. I'd say doubtful though if he gets boxed in, which is likely.

If GW is left to expand uninhibited, he may grow big enough to found a religion provided a religion doesn't spread to him first. He's a beast on the upper diffiuclties (cha/exp is a powerful trait combo).

Gooblah said:

We could theoretically chop the Oracle in 5 turns if two workers chop two forests simultaneously!

Click to expand...

Oracle costs 225 at Epic speed. There's no marble to hurry it so it would take several forest chops to complete.

Sabertooth said:

Can somebody explain to me how you guys make those really nice dot maps? Do you do it in game, or do you copy and paste to a photo edit program, or what?

Click to expand...

I use good old Windows Paint. If you hold down shift while drawing lines it only allows you to draw horizontal, vertical and diagonal lines.

Sabertooth said:

Can somebody explain to me how you guys make those really nice dot maps? Do you do it in game, or do you copy and paste to a photo edit program, or what?

Click to expand...

Validator said:

I use good old Windows Paint. If you hold down shift while drawing lines it only allows you to draw horizontal, vertical and diagonal lines.

Click to expand...

Same here. Paint works great and, added bonus, loads quickly while Civ is left running minimized, unlike several more demanding graphics applications.

Great.

Thanks for the tip, and on with the game!

Good luck, Sisiutil: it looks like you have your hands full, but I'm still rooting for ya.

^ who else would we be rooting for...
looks like I'm going to have to root for Ragnar ..Go Ragnar, break those blocking cities.

Traitor.

Heretic.

Couple things:
1) Does research time go down if you research all prereqs? (i.e, if you research Hunting AND Agriculture, even though AH needs Hunting OR Agriculture, does AH's research time go down?)
2) What if we don't do either one but go for Mysticism? There's a huge block of black to the northwest (I think) of the city, and there's probably (again, not sure) Copper there.

Based on these two hypothetical siutuations, I came up with 4 outcomes:
1) Only 1 is true: Research Iron Working, then Priesthood beeline, then AH
2) Only 2 is true: Mysticism while building/chopping/whipping Settler. Found second city near Copper, build Obelisk. Then research IW, then either AH or Meditation
3) Both 1 and 2 are true: Well then. Research Hunting, AH OR Archery, Priesthood beeline, IW (Vultures and Archers can defend against Swords until we grab Priesthood, if Ragnar or Washington go for IW). This is the best case scenario, really.
4) Both 1 and 2 are false: Ouch. That would really suck. This would mean IW, Hunting, Archery, then Priesthood beeline while warring on Ragnar to secure Iron if needed. Or just warring on Ragnar, period.

1 is true. Technology Research Explained.... is the article.

Jet said:

At least do Hunting -> AH -> Archery for the discount.

You don't have time to both build the GW and block Ragnar.

^ Dot maps: some do it in a graphics program, I do it in the strategy layer (zoom out, left button on the bottom).

Click to expand...

he theoretically has time to block ragnar, and build GW/oracle/pyramids if he wants. it just requires he doesnt do things like get hunting (which i often call camping lol) and keep many forests. it does take some luck (like not getting an industrious civ with stone or marble), but it is possible (see OT).

OT:

I'm planning on getting bts soon and would like to see what spying has to offer so I would love it if Sisutil built the GW for a great spy.
Also, look at the size of the continent and the terrain, there will be a ton of barbarians!
It would be really great if Ragnar could be blocked by settling the stone city and then the green city on Validator's dot map and culturally link the three cities before finishing the GW.

shoot...I just posted a big post only for it to get deleted

the general theme was that Sis should optimize his tech path. He doesnt need IW, hunting, or archery until after priesthood. sure hunting shaves off a turn or two (i really dont know how much cheaper more prereqs make other techs), but tihs is something that is easily traded for cheaply. I'd suggest going for oracle and either getting math or alphabet. alphabet would allow you to start pumping spies now. Math would increase you chop efficiency and also is a prereq for calender. I prefer math because you'll probably not need any spies for a while because i doubt rangar will out tech you when he is blocked in. with math, you'd also be able to chop the pyramids with mad efficiency. math chops +stone .

tech path: AH>masonry>myst>poly>priesthood>pottery>Math(oracle)>IW>sailing>Calender? (not sure how cheap calender would be). hunting>archery after IW or before, depends on when you can get your 2nd settler out. if you build the pyramids, it could probably be before.

I prefer after because I'd rather start getting cities in the jungle and have the dyes and such nice and chopped. Since I dont have the save open now, you'd have to look and time it yourself :/.

build order: worker>warrior until pop2>worker>settler>GW>whatever you need(worker/warrior?)>oracle>chop pyramids chop premath to your hearts desire, but minimally since you get more out of post-math chops.

Normally I'm afraid of not being able to compete with faster expansion rates if I go with an early wonder spam strategy. However in this case, i think it doesnt hurt you to do it. why? Two reasons.

1) we can easily block off ragnar. by blocking off ragnar, there is theoretically a 1/3 or a 1/4 of the continent that he should be settling all for us. with some horizontal aggressive settling, we should be able to reserve (yay cheap zigs!).

2) the jungle. Jungle slows down expansion normally. by oracaling math, we are practically already at calender. after researching IW, and then Calender, we should be ready with many settlers/workers to settle the jungle and get it set up. Also, this should slow down Washington. but if he is an expansion fiend (dont know why but i've never played against him as a neighbor ), I wouldnt expect it to slow him down too much with the settling, just the clearing/improving it.

i would say once we get writing, open boarders and check to make sure he doest have iron or copper. and if he does, oh well. He probably will put at least 2 cities in that area we give him (and we only need cyan to block him in since the capital's 2nd boarder pop will finish the job). Once you get close to getting calender, I'd settler red city 1NW of the dot to grab all the dyes and start clearing the dye tiles in prep for the dyes and try to grow the city as fast as possible so that when you do get the dyes up, you can run as many of them as you can. this, along with FP cottaging, should give you the economy to settle far and wide. after the cyan city, I think you probably should settle in a NW fashion towards where the west coast should be and block off as much land for yourself to peacefully settle as possible. (this may also mean settlign a city on the coasts so ragnar could send a galley with settlers around the cyan city (unless the cyan city's boarder pops).

I still say Sis should go for Archery then IW. The point of an All Leaders CHALLENGE is to try and maximize the leader's TRAITS while aiming for victory. Even if protective archers are second rate units, it would still be nice to see how they perform in situations like these where better units aren't immediately available.

there is much more one can do with protective besides simply making archers. there are LBs, Rifle drafting, half priced walls/castles. castle's give us +25%. Gilgamesh is an espionage fiend. castles+nationalism+musket or rifling drafting? that's +50% and is also leveraging the protectve trait. It's not all in just the archer. heck, i once did a prot. archer rush when i didnt have copper/iron/horses. If sis is as unlucky as me, maybe he could try that on ragnar . refer to the leveraging protective thread for some more ideas.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=244193

by putting off archery, it doesnt mean that one cant or wont use archers as a main defensive unit, it just means that you're putting them off to ensure you get what you need, and that is mainly if Sis wants to build some early wonders. if we get the GW, we even dont need archery for a while. hell we dont need defensive units all all except for the happiness.

Ragnar is not protective, and he doesn't seem to have metals.
A chariot rush would certainly work.

but an archer rush would show off the protective trait . but i do like the idea of chariot rushing him. and since we start with the wheel, it would count as taking advantage of gilgamesh's "traits" . my guess is ragnar's cap would make a decent GP farm.

(i need to start my paper and stop browsing these forums...)

Sisiutil said:

... I've decided to start playing with some of the optional settings in this game. I chose a fairly minor one to start with: "Choose Religions". This allows the first civ to finish researching a religious tech to choose the religion that is founded as a result. This will make us a little less able to discern the advancement level of an opponent just based upon the religion that is founded. I tried this in an offline game a while back and the most disconcerting result was when Taoism was founded around 2000 BC! I then realized I had lost one of my markers for when the Liberalism race had begun (with the research of Philosophy and the usual founding of Taoism).

Click to expand...

Hi

You can figure out which religion tech was discovered when on choose your religion by using the what to reseach next menu. like say you discovered mysticism and 1 religion already been founded so your not sure whether to go for poly or med. When you mouse over them the one that was discovered 1st already will lose the "first to discover founds.." part in its description.

So whichever one still has that message you know it hasnt been discovered yet so that is the one to try if you want to found a religion and if you dont it lets you know at least which tech the civ who founded the first religion discovered.

This doesnt seem to work in the tech advisor tech tree window though. The messages dont seem to change. So if a civ is waaay ahead you wont really know until you get closer in tech so it can get listed on the reaserch next window you get everytime you finish a tech. So I guess yeah it still hard to tell something like exact insance if liberalism race has started but if you keep track in the research next menu you wont be 100% blind either.

Really bout the only REAL strategy in choose your religion is that diff cathedral level buildings get build bonuses with diff resources so choosing one that get bonus from resource you know you have might be SLIGHTLY helpful.

Other than that I guess it really just means choose religion you like for whatever reason whether it just a religion you like or you like the symbol or the sound it makes when you build a rel building or found it in a city hehe

Kaytie

Hmmm.
Well, if optimizing teching is the ultimate goal, we can glance at my last post to come up with some ideas:
1) Scout the huge bock of black to the NW. It might have Copper. While scouting, research Mysticism
2) If Copper is found, build/whip Settler, while researching Meditation. Build a Worker as first build in 2nd city to hook up copper, then Warrior, then whatever.
3) If Copper is not found, switch research from whatever tech is being researched to Iron Working, since survival is key, and it's going to be hard without any metals. Then do a Priesthood beeline, followed by Hunting, Archery, and AH
4) Regardless of what you did above, secure a metal (Iron and/or Copper) and Vulture Rush Ragnar. Simultaneously tech to Writing and Alphabet (Whichever enables Spies) and put some Spies in your cities to prevent a repeat of Joao's espionage in ALC 18, Take 2. Destroy Ragnar, then Washington if he expands too much.

Okay, that's my plan. Hope you like!

Well key techs+ strategies


Spy strategy
Priesthood+Masonry

Boxing+Conquest strategy
Archery+AH

I'd say for the Immediate techs
Hunting->Archery for boxing Ragnar most effectively
Masonry for GW
AH for cows/Horses
Priesthood

In that order