Culture Flipping - Historical Examples

Originally posted by Zouave





You admitted Starsbourg usually was controlled due to WAR. The SiNGLE example you cited clearly was an aberration, and even if it did whatever garrison was in it would not have vanished. Cite the date of this alleged incident and I'll investigate it further. But it is clearly an ABERRATION.

keep 'em coming. . .

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I wrote a paper about Strasbourg back in college in 1992. Luckily I still have it (even though I mostly cringe when I read my writing from that long ago). The year in question was 1667. As I re-read my paper, I noticed that I wrote the reason the Swiss cantons rejected the city's bid for entry was partially due to the difficulty in defending (which I stated before) and also due to religious balance issues in the Swiss confederation.

Also interesting to note was that Strasbourg was mainly a German-oriented Lutheran city until France, under Louis XIV, took the city in 1681. Louis and the French then adopted religious and political policies that encouraged French Catholics to move to the region and also to encourage Strasbourgers to convert to Catholicsm. In Civ III terms, he pumped up the culture, in an attempt to avoid the city reverting back to its German roots.

Originally posted by Zouave
My name on this forum is Zouave. Use it, fella. Furthermore, I NEVER call someone a "fanboy" unless they first have attacked me as a "whiner" - something they have done to anyone who correctly and acurately crtiticized this game since it came out. And I won't take it with a smile, not after eight months of that stuff.

Your lecturing tone - and personal references - does not deserve further response.

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I'll call you what I like, "fella".

If you don't want to address what I stated and instead attack me for my suggestion for making your life easier, then it's clear that you're more interested in arguing and whining about things than getting the problems with Civ 3 resolved. Putting credit upon your incessant complaining about the same thing for the fixes that Firaxis has put out in the patches makes you the most arrogant person I've ever met, along with one of the most delusional.

BTW, the topic of this thread is "Historical Examples". I see you were unable to post any either.

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Was I defending Culture flipping? No.

Was I trying to? No. Are you simply attacking anyone and everyone who doesn't agree with you that everything about Civ 3 sucks? Yes. Have you earned a spot on my list (and many others') as one of the most annoying people ever? Yes. Expect no more responses from me. It's clear that you just want to argue and make people angry, and continuing to try to reason with you is below me.

P.S. I expect "no further responses".

Trip,
Zouave didn't attack anyone here infact the thread was practicly addressed to him as far as I can see he was defending himself.
Is it possible that people like you attacking him all the time is why he is like this?

now you said "it's clear that you're more interested in arguing and whining about things than getting the problems with Civ 3 resolved"
what else can he or anyone else do to get things resolved we have posted in the forums and emailed Firaxis and with the addition of each new patch we find more things wrong

personally I and im sure countless others Agree with him

Trip as you said your self CF sucks what have you done about it other then attack people that are trying to get enough people to make some noise so Firaxis will change it

as for being arrogant you are the one that attacked him correct me if im wrong but this is a public forum which means he or anyone else can criticize Firaxis if he wants to.
maybe its time for people to back off you don't have to agree with him

now i expect everyone to reply to this

Alright, let's duel. I love a good debate.

Originally posted by Silent Assassin
Trip,
Zouave didn't attack anyone here infact the thread was practicly addressed to him as far as I can see he was defending himself.
Is it possible that people like you attacking him all the time is why he is like this?

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I was addressing the comments he was making and offered a suggestion and he shrugged me off as "lecturing", and said that I don't "deserve further response". Look at my first post. Read it. Where in it do I attack him? Not one spot. If he wants to reply in a rude manner then that's his business. But don't expect anything but the same from me. I'm exactly the person towards you as you show to me, amplified twice over.

Look at the tone of my first post to him. Read it twice if you have to. Then read his response. Notice a difference? Post 1 = "this is why it is, and this is how you can avoid the problem. You're upsetting a lot of people the way it is now and this is how you can change that". Post 2 = "screw you I don't care".

now you said "it's clear that you're more interested in arguing and whining about things than getting the problems with Civ 3 resolved"
what else can he or anyone else do to get things resolved we have posted in the forums and emailed Firaxis and with the addition of each new patch we find more things wrong

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It won't be resolved. Jeff Morris at Firaxis stated that culture flipping would not be changed in any way. With a statement like that why would someone want to continue? The lead designer of the game has flatly stated something that won't change, and yet someone continuously complains about it. For what purpose? No one at Firaxis is listening anymore. Telling us over and again doesn't help anything either. After eight months or more, you'd think Firaxis would have changed things if they were going to.

personally I and im sure countless others Agree with him

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You mean countless others dislike culture-flipping? Of course. I'm one of them. I just think there's a better way to go about dealing with the problem, and his attitude turns off more people to the issue than he helps bring to his side.

Trip as you said your self CF sucks what have you done about it other then attack people that are trying to get enough people to make some noise so Firaxis will change it

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You state again that I attacked him. Show me where I did.
I've spoken with many members of the Firaxis team multiple times on this issue, and gotten the same response: it won't change.
What have I done about changing culture-flipping? Becoming involved, talking with the team and making sure I understand the issue thoroughly. I've done nothing lately because there's no point. I repeat, the head designer of the game firmly stated that nothing would change. Nothing short of firing half of the development team will change things. And what are the odds of that happening? I assure you that continual complaining about culture-flipping won't result in that.

as for being arrogant you are the one that attacked him correct me if im wrong but this is a public forum which means he or anyone else can criticize Firaxis if he wants to.
maybe its time for people to back off you don't have to agree with him

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Once again, I ask you to read my first post, then read his response. Point out places where I attack him. Quote me. I can point out places in his response that shows the rude and arrogant tone I recieved from what he said.

I told him not to call people 'fanboys' that disagree with him. Is that attacking him? If I'm not mistaken, calling any thread that supports culture-flipping a "fanboy thread" is more attacking than giving friendly advice.

I'll quote some things that he's said in just this thread attacking others or otherwise belittling them.

Definitions courtesy of Dictionary.com.

This is boring, these lame examples you cite.

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Stop being a little fanboy Firaxis apologist.

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Ouch, I think the attack-factor on those ones is upwards of 7 or 8.

If Firaxis didn't have critics keeping them honest you'd have likely gotten no patches.
Don't have to thank me; it's OK.

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My my, that one is definitely a 10 on the arrogance scale.

Definition of 'arrogant': "Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance."

Enough of these feeble "examples".

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And that one's gotta be an 8 or 9 on the rude scale.

Defintion of 'rude': "Ill-mannered; discourteous"

In re: to my post, after I offered some advice so that he didn't get attacked so often, I then explained why Firaxis had each element of culture-flipping included. No attacks there. Maybe my eyesight is just going bad and you can point such things out to me...

now i expect everyone to reply to this

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Touche.

Zouave, I see you have yet to respond to this list of examples which i have posted in two different threads:

The Ionian Greeks flipped from Persia. Ancient Israel flipped from the Romans. The West Bank and Gaza have been trying to culture-flip from Israel for years. Israel itself flipped from the Arabs. Persia flipped from the empire of the Medes. Kosovo attempted to flip from Serbia to Albania. Slovenia flipped out of Yugoslavia. America flipped away from Britain. Various tribes in the Aztec empire flipped to Spain when the invasion began. Texas flipped from Mexico. Both Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 flipped out of the Soviet sphere, and the Soviets sent in troops to reclaim them. Care to elaborate on how these are NOT historical examples of culture-flipping?

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"Zouave didn't attack anyone here infact the thread was practicly addressed to him as far as I can see he was defending himself." -Silent Assassin

There was no need to defend himself as he wasnt being attacked. It was an invite however to cite his reasoning behind his statement.

Oda Nonabunga made some very good points, I especially like what he said about nationalism. Perhaps nationalism SHOULD affect culture flipping in some way.

As for the Melungeons, Zouave said they were a pre civil war people. Fact is they were around before 1587 for a fact. Thats almost 200 years before the United States was even a concept. To say that they had no culture or civilization would be a great disservice to them or any people for that matter. If early America did not persecute their rights for being colored (well some of them anyways) then perhaps we would have a greater understanding of their history. It was all but forgotten because of -- American culture.

Oh, India. The British conquered India. Following two costly world
wars, the rise in nationalism throughout the world, and the many actions of Gandhi, itwas no longer politically, miliarily, or economically feasible for Britain to stay. And India gaining its independence is not the same thing as one large civ's city "flipping" to another large civ.

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Indian territory flipped back to the Indian Civ. It had been around before, and it returned after independance.

To those who like cf, did you ever see in history a civilian population kill a well trained army to take back control of the city, i dont think it exist and even possible, civilian are coward in war time and in no way they can retake control of their city from an ennemy army.

Infograme ( or firaxis) wont do anything about cf, sure, they wont do a 1.29 german patch, they wont do a mac 1.29 patch, and 1.29 is the final update after only 8 month. This mean this compagny have no more future IMO. When a company stop giving support it tell you something going wrong there.

I hope firaxis will cultur flip back to Sid meier s.

Originally posted by Tassadar
To those who like cf, did you ever see in history a civilian population kill a well trained army to take back control of the city, i dont think it exist and even possible, civilian are coward in war time and in no way they can retake control of their city from an ennemy army.

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What makes you assume they are killed - troops stationed in foreign countries for years have to do other stuff than just walk around with swords all day. They could just decide that after 1, 5 or 20 years of being stationed in that faraway place, they actually like it much better and decide to settle down. That's what happened with the vikings who conquered and settled in England. They eventually got assimilated by the english because they were too far away from home, and time had passed, so they didn't feel any real connection with their home country. Cultural assimiliation - and mind you, they were warriors alright, not peaceful settlers.

But to answer your question directly: No, I've never heard that happen. I've never looked out my window and seen a sign hanging over the city telling how many people live here, and what we are all currently building.

It's a strategy game - not a history lesson.

Originally posted by Isak
What makes you assume they are killed - troops stationed in foreign countries for years have to do other stuff than just walk around with swords all day. They could just decide that after 1, 5 or 20 years of being stationed in that faraway place, they actually like it much better and decide to settle down. That's what happened with the vikings who conquered and settled in England. They eventually got assimilated by the english because they were too far away from home, and time had passed, so they didn't feel any real connection with their home country. Cultural assimiliation - and mind you, they were warriors alright, not peaceful settlers.

But to answer your question directly: No, I've never heard that happen. I've never looked out my window and seen a sign hanging over the city telling how many people live here, and what we are all currently building.

It's a strategy game - not a history lesson.

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Ok i agree that viking got assimilated over time, but the viking did conquere england and keep control of it, I would say the local were under control by the viking and over time the local and the conquerer form a unique cultur. In anyway the viking flip back to local and lose control.

It is a historical thread not a strategic thread

Originally posted by Tassadar
Ok i agree that viking got assimilated over time, but the viking did conquere england and keep control of it

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Yes, for all of 21 years (1014-1035) - I think that constitutes about 2 turns in the game.

And actually English settlements were not the only ones to suffer this fate - the same goes for the Vikings who settled in Normandy.

Infograme ( or firaxis) wont do anything about cf, sure, they wont do a 1.29 german patch, they wont do a mac 1.29 patch, and 1.29 is the final update after only 8 month. This mean this compagny have no more future IMO. When a company stop giving support it tell you something going wrong there.

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and...

It is a historical thread not a strategic thread

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What was that again?

East Germany, 1989. Flipped from Soviet influence to Western influence (tearing down of the Berlin Wall.)

Originally posted by Tassadar
To those who like cf, did you ever see in history a civilian population kill a well trained army to take back control of the city

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The Hessian troops in the Revolutionary War disappeared, as a military force. Well, many of them did.

I don't know it for a fact, but I'd be very surprised if the Polish, Czech, Bulgarian, etc., armed forces aren't alot smaller than they were 20 years ago. As Eastern Europe culture flipped, many of the troops became regular folks.

I will say this...one of the ideas that had me excited about Civ 3, in those heady Civ 2 days, was the idea of independent city states as the game wore on. Or even mini-empires.

I think that Firaxis could have very easily melded culture flipping and non-expanding, static mini-kingdoms. Think of how Prussia's leader came to be Kaiser. Or how Rome came to control Italy. Or for the warlike, how England became Britain, or how the US came to control the West.

See, instead of culture flipping, a city should sometimes instead fight for independence. You as a leader would have a choice...fight to keep the city (might win, might lose, will definitely lose some troops and some city improvements), or take your troops out and leave it independent. Of course, sometimes, the city would out-and-out flip, especially if you're an extreme warmongerer with low culture and a history of atrocities.

The lack of that intermediate step is a weakness in Civ 3, and I frankly don't understand why it couldn't be in the game. Just put in a few more goody huts, and make some of them independent cities. Should you leave them alone? Conquer them (and hope they don't reassert their independence later? Or be more prone to flipping?) Build cities nearby and try to culturally assimilate?

Getting off topic I know, but while I like Civ 3, and I like culture flipping as a general idea and antidote to warmongering, I still find the game to be a huge disappointment, overall. I had a basic game design in mind from the best suggestions from the fans that would have been a vastly, vastly superior game.

I still state the Czechezovakian border flip with germany just prior to WWII as the best historical culture flip. The whole event took place while the Czechs were at peace with the germans and the whole process was fired by international pressure- the british and french told the czechs in no uncertain terms that if they didn't give up the border that they would be going to war with germany (on thier own) the czechs reluctantly agreed and gave up their strong border deffences; Heavy artillery and military instalations and were subject to military occupation by germany.

Yes I realize that there will be no change to culture flipping, and I supose I can live with that; The fans have had quite an influence on the design (and redesign) of Civ III, back in the days of the first home computers (The comadore64, Spectrum 48k, and later the sega and nintendo consoles) there was no fan input; or at least no response to that input. You bought a game, and if it sucked then the joke was on you; No one would could ever have imagined it any other way.

It would be possible to make Civilization a very realistc simulation of history, I could think of a million things to make it more realistic- but there would come a point where realism would just become too complicated for The average player , and that is who firaxis (and any other games company still in business) aims their games at, the average players are the people who pay for the development and publishing of the games; The guys and dolls here at civ fanatics may devote much of their time and efforts towards civilization, but overall they are just a small percentage of the people who actualy buy CIV III, check the number of people signed up at Civfanatics and apolyton against the number of copies of Civ III sold (of course this doesn't include lurkers) and you will find that is is only a small percentage of players who are interested in Civ III as anything other than a casual gaming experience, a few weeks of play till the game gets too boring/anoying to play any more.
All firaxis has to do is sell the game to those people, and make a bit more cash from the XP and they can pay for their next release (I know its harsh, but its the reality of capitalism; you would think people would be used to it by now).

It is nice that firaxis do listen to the hardcore fans, we give them free development testing, and in return they give us free upgrades- if it were in their interest to increase the impact that fans have on development, perhaps they would make more changes. I am not a "firaxis Fanboy", but I am aware of the realities of game development and international capitalism, perhaps we are not subject to ideological censorship but you must all be aware that every public production is subject to economic censorship- if an idea is not enconomicaly viable (due to a lack of popular suport=$) then it does not get published.

A more realistic version of Civ III would not be economical viable- it wouldn't return as much money as would have to spent on it, in the same way an ateration to culture flipping would be too hard to implement, its not a small change and it wouldn't provide significantly increased sales of the expansion pack; nearly every one who wants a change to culture flipping would still be buying the expansion pack anyway.

The only two ways to have a greater effect on further development of civ III is #1 convert lurkers in to civfanatics or poly members (representing an increase of market share by the hardcore fans) and #2 organise a boycot of Play the world, a option that I would not advise, reduced sales of PTW can only hurt future CIV development, by seeming to represent oposition to the things included in the add on (such as multiplayer, the main reason for buying PTW as far as many people are concerned).

Originally posted by rmsharpe
East Germany, 1989. Flipped from Soviet influence to Western influence (tearing down of the Berlin Wall.)

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This is why I try to restrain myself from looking in this goofy thread. Ah, the distortions.

As was posted months ago, East Germany collapsed because it was ECONOMICALLY bankrupt; politically too.

That does NOT mean "culture" did not play some factor. I always said it could.

And guess what? All those many Soviet divisions in East Germany DID NOT VANISH INTO THIN AIR; they went back to the Soviet Union, soon to become Russia.

Sigh.


If Culture Flipping made even a little sense Canada would have become part of America long, long ago. And Ireland NEVER would have fought for its independence for generations; it just would have become part of Britain.


Let me see if I can think of a few. . .

How about Burgundy? Nope. They were
really French anyway, and the French were stronger militarily. Once the English were on their way out Burgundy could no longer be separate - especially after Charles the Bold LOST BATTLES and was KILLED in COMBAT by the Swiss! No "Culture" there!

How about the semi-barbarian Bulgars? They were right next to the huge and immensely cultured Byzantine Empire and Constantinople. No "flipping" here! Basil II destroyed their army and blinded most of his prisoners whom he sent back home - causing the Bulgar czar to drop dead of a heart attack. No "culture" there.

Hmmm. Any examples. . . The Baltic States? Nope. Right next to Russia and the Soviet Unionfor centuries. Never "Flipped".

California in 1846 "flipping" to the Ameicans? Nope, conquered militarily..

Tiny Tibet ever "flip" to gigantic China? Nope. Conquered militarily.

How about very tiny Hawaii in the 1890's? Nope. It was conquered militarily. (Not much of a fight, admitedly, but it was still done by force).

I give up. There are NO examples. CF is Fantasy. Too bad it's not in a Fantasy game.


Little Portugal next to much bigger Spain never "flipped"/

Zouave your exemple is very good to show how cultur flip is ridiculus ( minus ridiculum). In anyway citizen can kick an invasionary force. Citizen are coward in war time.

A possible real life example.if/when it ever happens
(note my quotes in this example as I strive to put things into a civ perspective.for record..i don't support culture flips.but this is interesting to me)

Quebec:

A french "city"conquered militarily by england way back when (plains of abraham?.i forget its been nearly 20 years since i was in school).and becomes English (consider Canada english "citys" for this purpose)

consider quebec a "city" with mostly french citizens and french culture built up.aome english citizens are of course added over the years but predominantly mostly french citizens there

The citizens in the "city" of quebec decides to VOTE (ie no military involved) and become non-english and revert to its other "cultural identity"..ie french..it may (and indeed probably won't) become part of France but for this example we will consider it part of the French "cultural civ" since that it what its reverting to

Chances are any military in Quebec is going to be made up of Quebecians and thus when they revolt they will not return to Canada (England) but remain there (things like ships etc will probly be a different story.im thinking mostly of infantry bases here ). they werent killed..they didn't mysteriously dissappear.they become "French" (may explain the free units you get when a city CFs to you)

The result will be an area in former "england" that is no longer "english" but "french"

Opinions/comments welcome (except ones about wether or not it will actually take place..this is a pure "what if" situation.but it is POSSIBLE and realistic that it could happen)

How about very tiny Hawaii in the 1890's? Nope. It was conquered militarily. (Not much of a fight, admitedly, but it was still done by force).

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In the game, there would be no way in hell Hawaii would flip to the US, the US had no citizens there, had no cultural influence and Washington was half a world away.

Tiny Tibet ever "flip" to gigantic China? Nope. Conquered militarily.

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Take a look at a map. Tibet is hardly tiny. Besides, all those ancient monasteries have been generating culture for eons.

Hmmm. Any examples. . . The Baltic States? Nope. Right next to Russia and the Soviet Unionfor centuries. Never "Flipped".

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Their capitals were too close.

EDIT: btw, they were actually part of Russia & the USSR for a long time.

Now, can we get back to the list of examples I posted above? Or will you just continue to ignore anything which supports CF?

Originally posted by Ziggy
Opinions/comments welcome (except ones about wether or not it will actually take place..this is a pure "what if" situation.but it is POSSIBLE and realistic that it could happen)

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It has already happened - Denmark got back the southern part of the Jutland peninsula from Germany, through a Democratic vote back in 1920.

And you have some very good points on why the occupying forces are lost.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Now, can we get back to the list of examples I posted above? Or will you just continue to ignore anything which supports CF?

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I would also like to see some response to my examples

Originally posted by Isak
What makes you assume they are killed - troops stationed in foreign countries for years have to do other stuff than just walk around with swords all day. They could just decide that after 1, 5 or 20 years of being stationed in that faraway place, they actually like it much better and decide to settle down.

<snip>

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Something like 2000+ British soldiers, apparently with no ties back in England, stayed behind after the Revolution.

Most astounding was that something like 5000 of the Hessians decided not to return to Europe and stayed in North America. This was something close to 50% of the survivors and 30% of the maximum total send/lent to fight there.

CF in the game seems to be an amalgam of revolts, revolutions, independence movements, underground resistance, cutural influence of other countries and other things.

The general closest thing seems to me to be a strong independence movement. Behind the US revolution was simply that Americans began to establish an identity of their own seperate and distinct from the Brits.

Revolutions and wars for independance have been COMMON thru history. However, in the game if a city were to revolt and set up a NEW state/civ of Bulgaria it most often wouldnt work. A)people would complain because they set it for 6 or 8 players and now, there is one more. B) If it happens late enough everyone would just gobble it up.

In fact and in deed, from the perspective of the Brits and their colonies in America, India, etc, when independence came, there is no difference between independance and the CF in the game. They are left without the revenues, strategic positions, natural resources (they were quite dependant on the tall trees for masts and raw iron ore), subjects to call on for the military and so forth. *Just like the game*.

In the game, it makes it a BIT more interesting that there is a risk of it to revert back. This is after all a PENALTY for any number of faulty game play moves on the human's fault. Knowing that it can happen, it would seem the bright player would deal with it rather than ignoring it because they dont like it in the game. After all, it is not impossible to prevent CF from happening.

I do think that smaller cities should be near to impossible to flip back; but the human should maybe lose half the units posted there. The other half were not so awed by the culture as to fight against their former brethren, and moved away or became citizens.