Worst wonder?

TheMeInTeam said:

Sistine is up there as a TOP wonder. Reasons:

1. If you build it, it nerfs the bejeezus out of AI culture attempts. An AI that might have won it in the early 1800's won't even have 3 legendary cities by 1900 AD. Ouch. Building it essentially buys you extra time to either win or intercept a to-be-legendary city.
2. Unparalleled culture pressure. Not only do specs get 2 , but each of the religious buildings get a heap of too, and the BONUS doubles along with those buildings themselves after 1000 years. Think zara's borders are rough on a non-CRE leader? Not when you get sistine chapel and wind up flipping one of his cities.......
3. It's obviously very strong for culture wins.

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Hmm. I've only had an AI get a culture vic one or two times before I could get my typical space race win or diplomation, so I've never given nerfing it much thought.

Border culture is more of a concern in some cases, but there I usually just get tactical on building all-culture at the exact border cities and then prioritizing culture bonus buildings one back. Most of the time that's sufficient, but I can see where SC would help there.

TheMeInTeam said:

No pacifism, one of the strongest civics in ANY tree? OR is good too...but seriously...

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I like having my unit cakes and eating buildings too.

TheMeInTeam said:

AW makes priests a top specialist; I've seen some crazy things using them from Kesshi back in the day.

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If you love Great Prophets, then I supposed that's a viable strategy. I love Engineers, Scientists, and exactly one Merchant (Sushi). GPs I consider pollution like GAs these days.

TheMeInTeam said:

You already have power in all of your cities (usually). You're sinking a LOT of into what equates to a health boost. While this can have merit in a runaway tech game, it's usually not so hot.

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In the game era where 3GD can be built, the major limiting factor on city growth is health. Every shave-down of unheatlhy points adds working tiles. And it's in anticipation of building 3GD (and also to avoid the health nerf) that I leave off building coal plants.

TheMeInTeam said:

??? The pentagon has 2 votes on this list. It also comes with a top notch technology that happens to speed the construction of everything. I don't see this as an unpopular wonder on the forum and the poll certainly doesn't suggest otherwise!

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Oops, got carried away in thinking all wonder choices would be unpopular, hehe.

TheMeInTeam said:

And your result is to slow down your space time every time you bother building this trash................if you were to run the #'s on every space win you've ever played in BTS, MAYBE builing space elevator speed up your victory in one game. Probably not though. Building it slowed you down in all of the others. You're free to build this trash wonder if you like it (it's a fun concept for real life to have a space elevator), but don't think for a second it's actually helping your launch time.

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Perhaps you're forgetting the matter of what to do with the free Engineer for discovering Fusion first? Might as well get SE at about half price and at the same time deny it to the AI, is how I roll. You can't use an Engineer for space ship parts, after all.

Skallagrimson said:

Perhaps you're forgetting the matter of what to do with the free Engineer for discovering Fusion first? Might as well get SE at about half price and at the same time deny it to the AI, is how I roll. You can't use an Engineer for space ship parts, after all.

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Golden age? That Great Engineer can't research Robotics for you and still build half the wonder either by the way!

Ghpstage said:

Golden age?

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I'd have to burn multiple great peeps by that era.

Ghpstage said:

That Great Engineer can't research Robotics for you and still build half the wonder either by the way!

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No robotics before fusion is an interesting choice. I find it puts me way ahead of the Infantry-deploying AIs to deploy Mech Infantries to fight them with. But that's just me.

I like having my unit cakes and eating buildings too.

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To the massive detriment of tech...

Border culture is more of a concern in some cases, but there I usually just get tactical on building all-culture at the exact border cities and then prioritizing culture bonus buildings one back. Most of the time that's sufficient, but I can see where SC would help there.

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IMO this is a difficulty level thing. AI culture puts a lot more pressure on you if it's in the 1700-1800 AD range than post 1900.

And it's in anticipation of building 3GD (and also to avoid the health nerf) that I leave off building coal plants.

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Most would consider this a misplay unless you lack coal, and they're probably right. You're giving up a lot of turns of 75% productions for that health...

Might as well get SE at about half price and at the same time deny it to the AI, is how I roll. You can't use an Engineer for space ship parts, after all.

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Merely teching robotics at all slows down your space time, and if you're going space it is 100% unnecessary virtually every time...any combo of nukes, modern armor/air, or massed collateral can easily defend borders the entire game...all things on the space tech path.

Then you have to add in the build time of SE on top of it (not to mention hammers)...running the #s on this trash proves it's almost NEVER worthwhile. I wish firaxis didn't make a worthless trash wonder, but they did.

The real pain being that at one time it was a useful wonder. On the other hand, if it works to distract the AI while they are pursuing their favorite VC, it isn't completely worthless. Worthless to build? yes, worthless to have in the game? not necessarily. How often do you see the AI building it in BTS?

Please note, I would much rather see a wonder worth actually building, don't get me wrong.

Wow, this old chestnut of a thread is still kicking around. It must have been *searches own posts* seven months since I posted here, and still the single guaranteed-net-loss wonder in the game still trails in the poll...

I had a thought though: maybe the moved SE is intended to speed up your second spaceship in case your first one crashes? After all, that possibility didn't exist prior to BtS. Of course, if your spaceship crashes then you've practically lost anyway, but like I said, it's a thought

Clam Spammer said:

Wow, this old chestnut of a thread is still kicking around. It must have been *searches own posts* seven months since I posted here, and still the single guaranteed-net-loss wonder in the game still trails in the poll...

I had a thought though: maybe the moved SE is intended to speed up your second spaceship in case your first one crashes? After all, that possibility didn't exist prior to BtS. Of course, if your spaceship crashes then you've practically lost anyway, but like I said, it's a thought

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I had an OCC once where the SE was a helpful build - GE cash rush with low production city. Another poster mentioned he sometimes gets Robotics via Internet and can rush it. I can't imagine SE outside of OCC. I've never had occassion to build Chicken Pizza. Both are extremely limited. I voted for Chicken Pizza.

On the other hand, a lot of people get into the habit of building it when it hurts them so maybe it should be the worst. Both the AP and SE make you wonder what the Beta testers were doing.

Clam Spammer said:

Wow, this old chestnut of a thread is still kicking around. It must have been *searches own posts* seven months since I posted here, and still the single guaranteed-net-loss wonder in the game still trails in the poll...

I had a thought though: maybe the moved SE is intended to speed up your second spaceship in case your first one crashes? After all, that possibility didn't exist prior to BtS. Of course, if your spaceship crashes then you've practically lost anyway, but like I said, it's a thought

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Not so likely ( and yes, this one still kicks )

The issue is that building the SE in Warlords and Vanilla is a good idea a lot of times, due to various reasons: the tech that gets it is needed for the SS parts there and it comes earlier. That made going for the SE a very good proposition, especially given that you couldn't cut build parts out of the SS ( and even there it was not a assured thing, more like 75% of the times it would be benefical to build the SE ).

Then someone thinked this was too much and decided to nerf it, but they overdid it: either the use of a non-SS related tech or the bigger tech count to get it would probably made it a 30-40 % issue in terms of being net beneficial, but both made it to crash and burn badly

EDIT:

On the other hand, a lot of people get into the habit of building it when it hurts them so maybe it should be the worst. Both the AP and SE make you wonder what the Beta testers were doing

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Knowing a lot of the BtS beta testers, I can almost assure you that either they weren't heard or they were never asked to test a full game besides some very narrow limited situations ( my opinion, based in all the balance issues I know of BtS ) is that the full game was almost exclusively tested in standard continent maps, all settings in default, by players that played Monarch-emperor in Warlords at best ... and with players that used the tried and trusted "conquer your continent than invade the other with rifles" strat ). In those situations both AP and SE are virtually non-testable

Chicken Pizza is actually a lot better in BtS. You really need spies to reduce the city defence then otherwise it takes forever. I still never build it though

chichen itza may have some merit though if you see shaka going WHEOOHRN and you can wall-whip it out. i'm not sure if you'll actually come out ahead on hammers though >_>

but i mean, that's better than space elevator which has next to no practical use.

ParadigmShifter said:

Chicken Pizza is actually a lot better in BtS. You really need spies to reduce the city defence then otherwise it takes forever. I still never build it though

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it passed from " NEVER" in Warlords to " It has some merit, but, by some reason I never find it to be the best build in any actual game I play" in BtS

jokulmorder said:

chichen itza may have some merit though if you see shaka going WHEOOHRN and you can wall-whip it out. i'm not sure if you'll actually come out ahead on hammers though >_>

but i mean, that's better than space elevator which has next to no practical use.

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Well, even there the Chichen Itza would probably be worse than it's hammer value in units ...

Why not? The factory is the expensive bit, once that's down, the coal plants are pretty cheap. Once you have forge/factory/coal plant, you can get a ton of infrastructure in a hurry. It's not like you're not allowed to whip or use workshops or whatever!

That's why I love to beeline assembly line, because I am a huge building whore. I've liberalism-slingshotted assembly line once on Emperor, which while awesome, occurred on an easy map.

Assembly line beelines are good for EVERYBODY. It's one of the strongest single techs in the game: It unlocks massive production that can be applied to ANY build (infra, wonder, military, project), one of the most versatile footsoldiers in the game that easily trounces previous era units, and is a required step for better military. Avoiding this tech for any period of time rarely makes sense.

If you have to add the cost of hospitals and recycling centers, it's not looking quite as good... and by this time in the game, there are very different ways of running one's empire (factories aren't much of a priority with mostly cottages + windmills for massive rushbuy). When to push for rapid industrialisation and how many concessions to make is rarely a trivial decision for me.

Iranon said:

... with mostly cottages + windmills for massive rushbuy.

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But then you're locked into running US. If you're not spiritual then there is a least two turns of loss of production, commerce and research to switch to it/out of it. The gold you're spending on the rushbuy could be spent on a mass upgrade of your highly promoted units.

When to push for rapid industrialisation and how many concessions to make is rarely a trivial decision for me.

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For me there is no decision to be made. It's as soon as they are available. With base hammers of 40 the city will be producing +10 each and every subsequent turn regardless of what civics I'm running. This more than offsets the cost of any future health buildings.


This should be in the Civilopedia:

TheMeInTeam said:

Assembly line beelines are good for EVERYBODY. It's one of the strongest single techs in the game: It unlocks massive production that can be applied to ANY build (infra, wonder, military, project), one of the most versatile footsoldiers in the game that easily trounces previous era units, and is a required step for better military. Avoiding this tech for any period of time rarely makes sense.

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Sorry, but that post reveals that you don't understand the alternative(s). Rushbuy can beat regular production before Assembly line becomes available. Not every map/planned empire supports this, and it requires dedicating yourself to it early to set it up well... but optimal gameplay isn't anywhere near as formulaic. And that certainly isn't the only economy style where the question arises.

Assembly Line is often a priority, but at this time there are plenty of other good beeline targets available. Claiming AL is ALWAYS the best choice makes little sense unless you're implying one should always refine the most competitive playstyle overall, without exploring alternatives.
In which case there is no excuse to still be playing - why didn't you win an Apostolic Palace victory already?

Iranon said:

Sorry, but that post reveals that you don't understand the alternative(s). Rushbuy can beat regular production before Assembly line becomes available.

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Perhaps you didn't understand my reply. I was referring to Rushbuy compared to production when Assembly Line is available.

Claiming AL is ALWAYS the best choice...

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If you re-read my post I said I pushed for industrialisation as soon as it became available, not that I beelined AL every time. I agreed with what TMIT had written and quoted him:

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam
Assembly line beelines are good for EVERYBODY... ...Avoiding this tech for any period of time rarely makes sense.

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He didn't make that claim either.

...unless you're implying one should always refine the most competitive playstyle overall, without exploring alternatives.

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I find that AL helps in all play-styles -the increased hammers are obviously beneficial to production capacity, but they also increase the amounts received from building Wealth, Research and Culture. Regardless of play-style all three areas have to be addressed.

Not every map/planned empire supports this..

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The benefit is empire wide. Even if the map is 'dense' grassland some production is necessary, and again this production is going to need to be increased. Perhaps more so.

Claiming AL is ALWAYS the best choice makes little sense unless you're implying one should always refine the most competitive playstyle overall, without exploring alternatives.

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It's not a case of competitiveness, it's survival - Assembly Line brings Infantry into the game. Unless 'Always Peace' is checked it is necessary to keep power levels up/fend off attacks and this can't be done relying on Riflemen.

In which case there is no excuse to still be playing - why didn't you win an Apostolic Palace victory already?

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Because I prefer to win and not just end the game

I voted The Space Elevator.

TheMeInTeam said:

To the massive detriment of tech...

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Not much tech if you have no bonus buildings either.

TheMeInTeam said:

Most would consider this a misplay unless you lack coal, and they're probably right. You're giving up a lot of turns of 75% productions for that health...

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That's actually +25% as it boosts a factory from +25% to +50%. You might have been adding those two to find the bonus rather than subtracting. So for 25% more hammers you have the ability to work about 25% fewer hammer-yielding tiles due to people choking to death on the smog. You spent the turns building the coal plant, basically for no benefit other than the sadistic thrill of watching cities shrink. Who's misplaying now?

TheMeInTeam said:

Merely teching robotics at all slows down your space time, and if you're going space it is 100% unnecessary virtually every time...any combo of nukes, modern armor/air, or massed collateral can easily defend borders the entire game...all things on the space tech path.

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Point taken. I'll have to try robotics-dodging next time I play, see if the AI having stronger land units and +50% space ship production is a huge bonus to me or not (since I'm letting him beat me to robo's and letting him build Space Elevator). But yaaaaaay I can nuke... assuming I can kill the non-proliferation treaty. Cross those fingers for me.

TheMeInTeam said:

Then you have to add in the build time of SE on top of it (not to mention hammers)...running the #s on this trash proves it's almost NEVER worthwhile. I wish firaxis didn't make a worthless trash wonder, but they did.

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What I'm usually doing in my current strategy, is mostly on a conquest rampage without a whole lot of space ship parts production initially. My Iron Works city, which without an Engineer can build a SE in about 5 turns naked, will put about 2 turns into it and then go back to either pumping units or Wealth for unit upgrades, depending on the scenario. When I discover Fusion, I pop the Engineer, and spirit him over to the IW city and finish the SE. "Time" wise it's not even a blip on my radar. When SE's built I start to let my conquest wind down, start making peace and playing nice, or if my stacks are overkill huge just let them conquer what they can without new unit builds (apart from the West Point city), and the other pump cities switch over to space ship parts. They have the +25% bonus from laboratories and the +50% bonus from SE at that stage of the game.

A *human* would probably beat me to space, but the way the AIs play they typically don't. They usually just have all their thrusters done and one or two other parts before I launch.

Skallagrimson said:

That's actually +25% as it boosts a factory from +25% to +50% for a total of 75%. You might have been adding those two to find the bonus rather than subtracting. So for 25% more hammers you have the ability to work about 25% fewer hammer-yielding tiles due to people choking to death on the smog. You spent the turns building the coal plant, basically for no benefit other than the sadistic thrill of watching cities shrink. Who's misplaying now?

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Power gives +50% on top of the +25% from a factory. This is both what the civilopedia says (albeit not too clearly), and what happens ingame, and you can easily check with worldbuilder.