Deity OCC

I agree that Darwin is expensive, but I don't want AI gets that two techs%) Usually I'm not in a good leading postition, and when I begin Spaceship some AIs have tanks. And at this time it's rather difficult to dogpile it since other AIs ask Superconducor and Space Flights for this. It's rather unfair.
And they very love to ask for tribute when I come with caravans, here UN helps.
On other hand - good point to expoit allied AI for gift. I had allies several times but almost didn't ask gifts...

Is it unsafe to build Copernicus after the Theatre? Can AI grab it? Or Copernicus isn't so important?...With bank and stock exchange the lux can be put to 10% if you lose Shakespeare. So without Copernicus you will lose less then without Shakespeare. Am I overlooking something like early growth?))
Also...why do you try to build Hanging Gardens. Does this happy man help much? In the beginning I can build max 2 wonders without delaying research...

Very nice game with one tile island%) I even couldn't imagine a win with such conditions. It seems that Colossus is not so important. Oh, BtW, if i'm not mistaken, it adds arrows only to land, not for sea. In this case it was good that Indians built it. But isn't it too risky to build Colossus as the second wonder in usual games?
On other hand, it will add max 13-15 arrow (since we want the coast city). Well, not so much, at least after Automobile (=1 trade route). Copernicus or Shakespeare is much better. I think I will try no Colossus game, as I did in civ1. At least without it games are not unwinnable...

RedKi-rr said:

I agree that Darwin is expensive, but I don't want AI gets that two techs%) Usually I'm not in a good leading postition...

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Everything is a trade off. Surely it would be nice to deny the AI 2 techs. But at that point in the game it is going to cost you at least 16 turns (8 vans each taking two turns, one to seed, one to rush buy) to do so. Which is worse? I say the 16 turns.

RedKi-rr said:

And they very love to ask for tribute when I come with caravans, here UN helps.

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By the time you can built UN you should have freight. With 2 moves per turn, and the ability to deliver right off a ship you should be able to maneuver your way in and deliver before they get a chance to give you a hard time.

RedKi-rr said:

Is it unsafe to build Copernicus after the Theatre? Can AI grab it? Or Copernicus isn't so important?...

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Arguably Copernicus is the most important wonder for OCC. There is always the threat of your rivals grabbing wonders you need. The order is not that important and depends on the situation at hand (which techs are discovered by who).

RedKi-rr said:

With bank and stock exchange the lux can be put to 10% if you lose Shakespeare.

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You also need a temple, a cathedral, and a Colloseum. Furthermore, you may need 1-2 entertainers near the end which may prevent you from reaching full size and those extra scientist citizens at the end are quite important. Copernicus is more important than Shakespeare.

RedKi-rr said:

Also...why do you try to build Hanging Gardens. Does this happy man help much? In the beginning I can build max 2 wonders without delaying research...

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That is exactly the point. Getting 3 early wonders in (Colossus, Marco, Gardens) is very difficult and even if you succeed it often means you risk losing out on Copernicus or Shakespeare. I have often built Hanging Gardens when something went wrong. For example, I usually start on a wonder before I have the right tech for the wonder I want hoping to switch later. Some times the off path techs you get from huts or rivals delay such switches. Then I am faced with a situation where I have to build something else and the only other early wonder that is useful in OCC is Hanging Gardens.

RedKi-rr said:

It seems that Colossus is not so important. Oh, BtW, if i'm not mistaken, it adds arrows only to land, not for sea.

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Colossus adds an arrow anywhere one is already present. So oceans and anything with a river or a road gets it. So do all arrow specials. Tiles with no arrows to begin with (for example forests) are not affected. Colossus is quite important. I would say the most important is Copernicus. But after that it is debatable.

@Ali Ardavan,

I agree, the loss of 16 turn is worse%) I think I'll reconsider this wonder in my games. In civ2 it's very expensive (400 vs 300 in civ1) and less useful than in civ1 and in civ3, where it takes longer to make research at the same period.

I don't know but it seems to me that, when I come close to AI, it always wants to speak (even if I have moves) and if i reject then it declares a war, otherwise it wants tribute. Probably I mess this with civ1...

Yes, rivals always can grab wonders, but if you beeline them than rivals usually lose the race. For example, if we know that AI usually doesn't build some wonder before 1AD then we should build this wonder at any time, but before 1 AD (if we don't want gambling). On other hand one should do this only for crushial wonders. As for me such crushial wonder is Copernicus in civ1, it seems that there are no crushial wonders in civ2 since Copernicus here can be compensanted by trade...

I didn't play OCC civ2 without Shakespeare, but I use to do this in civ1 (Shakespeare will obsolete soon anyway and it costs 400). And I need market, bank, temple and colloseum (or cathedral) to celebrate to nice size. After celebrating I put slider to 10% and assign 1-2 entertainers. Since civ2 has stock exchange this should be even better here. So, in the end it's not important, but at the beginning of the growth it helps very much (espesially saving early money)

I just checked Colossus's effect in civ1 and civ2. It adds arrow everywhere with 1+ arrows in civ1, but it doesn't add arrow at ocean and sea in civ2...At least in my version. May be some patch fixed this. Could you please test in your version? Civilopedia in civ2 lies much...

BtW, did/do you play OCC in civ1?

Colossus adds an arrow to every tile already producing one in my version. If you haven't switched out of despotism, however, you won't get that third arrow because of the despotism penalty. I remember other civ 1 players have only used despotism and democracy, because they are (apparently) the only good governments in that game. This is not the case in civ 2, and you should switch to monarchy or republic as soon as you can. If you are using a more up to date government, and still have this problem, then there is probably a bug.

Prof. Garfield is right as usual. That is my guess too; that you built Colossus in despotism. I was an avid Civ1 player myself and indeed I never bothered with Monarchy and rarely Republic. Almost all the time it was despotism to democracy. In Civ2 Monarchy is so much better than despotism, that players unanimously agree that changing to Monarchy is the first goal in any Civ2 game.

RedKi-rr said:

As for me such crushial wonder is Copernicus in civ1, it seems that there are no crushial wonders in civ2 since Copernicus here can be compensanted by trade...

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Copernicus is still crucial in an OCC game, and almost so in an early landing game. An experienced Civ2 player against other human players once mentioned in these forums that in human vs. human games it is customary to agree on who builds what wonders ahead of time. He always picked Copernicus and was willing to let the other guy pick any number of other wonders in return. And he beat them.

RedKi-rr said:

BtW, did/do you play OCC in civ1?

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I tried once but I did not finish that game. One of the most frustrating things in Civ1 which was thankfully fixed in Civ2 was the random assignment of wonders to AI rivals once they had the right tech. With no warning all of a sudden you would lose out on a wonder. I do not recall that happening in the game I played. I cannot recall what distracted me and caused me to never finish that game.

@ Prof. Garfield, Ali Ardavan,

I checked Colossus in Monarchy as well...So I guess this is beacuse of the version. May be this was in earlier patches.
But why Republic is bad? It's perfect for OCC...And for normal game it anyway is needed for the first wave of celebrations.

@ Ali Ardavan,

Honestly, there are a lot of frustrating things in Civ1 OCC. Among them
- mentioned above random wonders (that's why i made deadline for wonders%) )
- awful monarchy for occ
- if you build something then you are not able to finish research the same turn
- AI need only Space Flights for whole Spaceship
- demanding AI, and almost no trading
- there are no good oedo years in civ1, therefore anarchy takes at least 1 turn

So, it's rather difficult. Probably, more difficult than Civ2 OCC.

But why Republic is bad? It's perfect for OCC...And for normal game it anyway is needed for the first wave of celebrations.

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I've never played civ 1, so I have no direct knowledge of the pros and cons of the governments there. However, at least one former civ 1 player has failed to switch out of despotism under the assumption that only despotism and democracy were worthwhile governments. A failure to switch governments was the most likely reason for your Colossus problem, which is why I mentioned it.

This website has the 2.42 patch somewhere in the downloads section, if you want to upgrade.

RedKi-rr said:

I checked Colossus in Monarchy as well...So I guess this is beacuse of the version.

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This is very odd. As I am sure Colossus behaved that way (adding an arrow to ocean squares) even in Civ1. In Monarchy without Colossus you should see 2 arrows in an ocean tile, with Colossus it should be 3. In Republic the numbers become 3 and 4 respectively.

RedKi-rr said:

But why Republic is bad? It's perfect for OCC...And for normal game it anyway is needed for the first wave of celebrations.

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Monarchy in Civ1 was bad and almost never used. Republic was not bad, and was used; however, many a times players (myself included) skipped it in favor of Democracy and went from despotism to democracy. This was indeed wide spread practice and is explicitly mentioned by game designers in their notes on what changed from Civ1 and why. Even in Civ2, I sometimes skip Republic in favor of Democracy in non-OCC games.

Thanks a lot!

I think I should get this Civ2 2.42 version since having 3 arrows at ocean at Rebuplic with Colossus is not fair)

I agree Democracy is nice, but you should play very careful. With a lot of cities it's easy to be in anarchy%) So, you need concentraion and patience to play with this goverment.

Edit:
It found out that I played in Civ2 v1.00...nice) In 2.42 I get three arrows from oceat at monarchy with Colossus.
All is alright. Thank you again!