Civilization 5 vs. Tic Tac Toe

pat4 said:

The civ V bashing just gets worse and worse. Honestly if you don't like the game then why do you spend your time on the civ V forum moaning about it?

Add something constructive or quiet down so the rest of us can talk about the game.

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For me this thread is not Civ5 bashing, but rather a parody of it...

Unless you're referring to the post above yours, in this case you're right.

pat4 said:

The civ V bashing just gets worse and worse. Honestly if you don't like the game then why do you spend your time on the civ V forum moaning about it?

Add something constructive or quiet down so the rest of us can talk about the game.

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Well, your post is not exactly a paradigm example of being constructive, right ? So, by your own words, you lost a very nice chance of being quiet

I think I have to repeat myself: people that really don't like civ V are not here anymore in their biggest majority ( say, people like madscientist ). OFC there are people that are actually trying to like the game, but they are not able to do that so far ... and given Afforess civ V modding volume so far, labeling him as a hater and someone that only comes here to moan is profoundly unfair... he probalby made more by the game already than 100 of people that make threads saying that they love the game as it is.

Toady said:

When you've offered to the civ community a tenth of what people like Afforess have i say you can get away with some tongue-in-cheeck posts.

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OK, what I meant to say was...

Afforess said:

People have been making illusions to tic tac toe being at par with the level of strategy in Civilization. As a tic tac toe fan, I find this very offensive. So, I've come up with a coherent comparison of Tic Tac Toe and Civilization 5.

Steam: Tic Tac Toe does not require Steam. Plus 1 for Tic Tac Toe.

Streamlining & Organic Feel: Tic Tac Toe is extremely superior in this respect. Tic Tac Toe has exactly one rule: place an "X" or "O" in a square, in an attempt to create a line of 3 of them. Civilization 5 has many rules, 1UPT, Hexes, Global Happiness, all of which make the game increasingly complicated. Plus 1 for Tic Tac Toe.

Turn Times: Tic Tac Toe has nearly instant turn times, even near the end of the game. Civilization 5 has long turn times, even on duel maps. Plus 1 for Tic Tac Toe.

Moddability: Tic Tac Toe mods have been spawned into entirely new games, such as "Connect 4". All and any of the game rules can be altered. Civilization Modibility has been found lacking. It's modding tools are incomplete and buggy. Plus 1 for Tic Tac Toe.

The AI: Tic Tac Toe's AI is extremely well written. The AI never loses, and at worst, will tie. Tic Tac Toe's AI does not cheat or receive any handicaps or bonuses. Neither can be said of Civilization 5. Plus 1 for Tic Tac Toe.

Replayability: Tic Tac Toe is very replayable. I can personally attest to having played tens of thousands of games in my lifetime. I think I've played 4 games of Civilization 5. Tic Tac Toe benefits strongly from it's good AI, quick turn times, and low barrier to entry. Plus 1 for Tic Tac Toe.

Cost: Tic Tac Toe is free. Civilization 5 costs 50 USD. Plus 1 for Tic Tac Toe.

Multiplayer: Tic Tac Toe's multiplayer supports up to 2 players, is fully functional, and very enjoyable. Adding a human to Tic Tac Toe does not increase turn times beyond the time the other human takes. Tic Tac Toe also supports mods in MP. Civilization 5 MP hides animations, has random unit movement, slower turns, and does not support mods. Plus 1 for Tic Tac Toe.

Overview: Tic Tac Toe scored every point, and thus is a superior game in every way.

Comments, Suggestions for other catagories to rate, and rage are welcome.

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Steam: What makes Steam a bad thing? You cant arbitrarily label something label something as bad when it has many benefits.

Streamlining & Organic Feel: Isnt complexity what makes the Civilization franchise so popular? The simplicity of Tic-Tac-Toe makes it virtually impossible to win\lose, who likes to play a game that you tie 90% of the time?

Replayability: I would say the average time someone spends playing Tic-Tac-Toe in one sitting is far less than what people play Civilization V in a sitting. I have played the game 7+ hours in one sitting, when I usually can only play games for an hour or so before wanting to do something else.

Turn Times: My turn times are always reasonable. Only in one game have they gotten really long, and I have never been able to repeat this with any settings, so I chalk that one up to a glitch. Even on huge map with 12 players, my turns never last more than 30 seconds. Get a better CPU, or play with less players.

Moddability: There is only one rule in Tic-Tac-Toe according to you, so there is only thing thing you can mod, anything else would be creation. You can tweak Civilization at an unprecedented level. You can change virtually every single gameplay mechanic. Many people have already created large mods that have turned the game in to an entire new experience. If you dont like a part of the game, odds are other people dont and have created a mod to fix\change it. And if you want, you can always create your own.

The AI: The complexity of the AI for Civilization V is also, literally, billions of times more complex than an AI for Tic-Tac-Toe. And with such a complex game, it would be infeasible to write an AI that could play competitively against some of the better players simply because the game is so complex. This is not to say the AI couldn't be better in Civilization, but its definitely better any Tic-Tac-Toe AI on a sense of complexity. The fact that a Tic-Tac-Toe AI can not lose is the result of a broken game, not good AI.

Cost: For the amount of time you can play Civilization V, $50 is a bargain. I like to compare games to movie tickets, which are nearly $10 for at most a 2 and a half hour move, usually there no more than 2 hours. With a game, you only have to play it for 15-20 hours for it to become "worth it" compared to a movie ticket. Also, the entertainment value of Civilization V is much more than Tic-Tac-Toe. Its much more of a mental challenge than Tic-Tac-Toe, so you could make an argument to say that statement is factual. One last thing, "cheaper is better" is hardly ever true. Whats better, a free Ford Pinto, or a $50 Ferrari?

Multiplayer: Whats more enjoyable to play with someone else, Tic-Tac-Toe or Civilization V? After two, maybe three games of Tic-Tac-Toe you lose interest and have to do something else. Even if you only play 10 minutes online in Civilization V, it still beats Tic-Tac-Toe.

Overview: You failed at making a satirical argument that Tic-Tac-Toe is better than Civilization V because your arguments\points are so ludicrous and unfounded, that its not very entertaining. Its also just another post for people to say how much they dislike Civilization V, and how much better Civilization IV was.

r_rolo1 said:

Well, your post is not exactly a paradigm example of being constructive, right ? So, by your own words, you lost a very nice chance of being quiet

I think I have to repeat myself: people that really don't like civ V are not here anymore in their biggest majority ( say, people like madscientist ). OFC there are people that are actually trying to like the game, but they are not able to do that so far ... and given Afforess civ V modding volume so far, labeling him as a hater and someone that only comes here to moan is profoundly unfair... he probalby made more by the game already than 100 of people that make threads saying that they love the game as it is.

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Well in his OP he says he has only played 5 games of V. But anyway I'm not posting to bash a single person I am just sick of seeing the same stupid arguments. Call it a bad unfinished game if that is your opinion but comparing it to tic tac toe is just childish.

If you want my constructive advice then here it goes: If you loved IV so much but hate V . . . . . . . play IV. Sounds crazy I know but there you go. If you're angry at having paid 50 quid for a game you don't like then tough. Buyer beware, don't buy another firaxis/civ game if that is your thing. I've both countles video games that I regretted instantly. These days I am a lot more cautious, I generally wait until it's been out a while and check out what friends/forums think (Civ V was an exception).

Ridiculous sigs and threads won't change anything but Firaxis have changed a lot of things in the patches and a lot of it from constructive posts I'm sure.

pat4 said:

Well in his OP he says he has only played 5 games of V. But anyway I'm not posting to bash a single person I am just sick of seeing the same stupid arguments. Call it a bad unfinished game if that is your opinion but comparing it to tic tac toe is just childish.

If you want my constructive advice then here it goes: If you loved IV so much but hate V . . . . . . . play IV. Sounds crazy I know but there you go. If you're angry at having paid 50 quid for a game you don't like then tough. Buyer beware, don't buy another firaxis/civ game if that is your thing. I've both countles video games that I regretted instantly. These days I am a lot more cautious, I generally wait until it's been out a while and check out what friends/forums think (Civ V was an exception).

Ridiculous sigs and threads won't change anything but Firaxis have changed a lot of things in the patches and a lot of it from constructive posts I'm sure.

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Well, well ...

The question is not if it childish or not, is if it is valid Other posters simply pointed that in their opinion comparing the two games is not fair, but that was not your attitude, right ?

Your "constructive" advice ... let's just start by assuming that not everyone that is bashing civ V as it is hates the game, OK ? Better, let's not assume as well that everyone that critics a part of the game is a civ IV lover, even if the poster in question says that civ IV handled a certain aspect of the game better ( he might dislike civ Iv, but actually think that it handled that better than civ V, right ? )? Let's not assume that everyone is pissed by paying 50 bucks for something that does not beat with their desires as well ...

If you want to deliver those critics, that are surely deserved for some, deviler them to the people that deserve them. That is constructive Spouting venom at a person that has actually made more than most for civ V now ( he has modding work in civ V, something that beats the contributions of a most of the posters here ) than most of the lovers/haters is destructive and ill-deserved.

Afforress: Nice attempt to pitch Tic-Tac-Toe here, but the game simply isn't adequate as a modern strategy game and you know it.

Tic Tac Toe violates one of Sid Meier's core design rules (as explained in his GDC 2010 keynote speech): it forces the player to endure setbacks. Turn after turn the player tries to build a winning position, only to have it destroyed by the AI. As Sid Meier explained, players cannot stand such immense frustration and will simply reload. However, in Tic-Tac-Toe, even this solution isn't available to the player - the AI is so good that it will always find a good move! And this blatantly violates another design rule (mentioned in the same keynote): The AI shouldn't do anything clever. Players will either quit the game in frustration, or complain that the AI is cheating.

Fortunately, a solution is at hand: In our sequel, we'll reprogram the AI so that it takes care to never block a player's winning move. This will remove all player frustration and cheating claims immediately.

Also, we can re-use these improved AI algorithms to further enhance the experience for the player. Once we have identified the winning move for the player (which we need to do, to prevent the AI from blocking it), we can also highlight this move on the player's turn, to prevent him from being frustrated after making a suboptimal move. As a further step towards maximum accessibility, we can then implement a feature that automatically chooses the best move for the player once he hits our big huge "Next Turn" button. In an effort to not confuse new players, we will also hide all interface features except the "Next Turn" button behind popups and sub-sub-submenus which require the user to input a secret "hardcore gamer code" to be accessible. These features will open up the franchise for new types of players and prevent us from dwindling our audience - because, you know, Tic-Tac-Toe was a great game for the fans, but it's nothing that fans of our other games, like "Stare blankly at bluescreen" or "Watch paint dry" could simply pick up.

We are also excited to announce that this new game, labeled "Tic-Tac-Toe: The Next Generation", will come with full 3d graphics - for the first time in the franchise, people will be able to rotate the board around each spatial axis!. Our ingenious artists have blurred all markings on the game board to achieve a beautiful organic look, and the game tokens will make authentic noises when they are placed. Making use of bleeding edge technology, this new game will also require a multi-core processor, since each of the AI components ("identify best player move", "find a move that doesn't impede the player's path to victory", "give in", "give up", and "lose") runs on its own thread, which will totally max out the CPU dedicated to it.

Buy Tic-Tac-Toe: The next Generation. Released exclusively on Steam next fall for only 99.90 USD!

r_rolo1 said:

Well, well ...

The question is not if it childish or not, is if it is valid Other posters simply pointed that in their opinion comparing the two games is not fair, but that was not your attitude, right ?

Your "constructive" advice ... let's just start by assuming that not everyone that is bashing civ V as it is hates the game, OK ? Better, let's not assume as well that everyone that critics a part of the game is a civ IV lover, even if the poster in question says that civ IV handled a certain aspect of the game better ( he might dislike civ Iv, but actually think that it handled that better than civ V, right ? )? Let's not assume that everyone is pissed by paying 50 bucks for something that does not beat with their desires as well ...

If you want to deliver those critics, that are surely deserved for some, deviler them to the people that deserve them. That is constructive Spouting venom at a person that has actually made more than most for civ V now ( he has modding work in civ V, something that beats the contributions of a most of the posters here ) than most of the lovers/haters is destructive and ill-deserved.

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Ok maybe hate is to strong a word. But if someone enjoys playing tic tac toe more then civ V for any time longer then 5 minutes and thinks that it has more replay-ability cleary that person is not to fond of the game .

And I didn't say that anyone who posts an un-complimentary thread about V must hate it and must prefer IV. I said if you don't like V you can always play IV and if you were pissed with paying $50, tough. (Paraphrase obviously).

I like many others am less then happy with some of the features as well as the dodgy AI, but these sort of posts are just ridiculous.

And yes I do see the somewhat ironic comparison between my venting of frustrations at the posts and other peoples venting of frustrations at the game, but firaxis only released 1 "terrible game" while there have been countless "hate/dislike" threads

pat4 said:

Ok maybe hate is to strong a word. But if someone enjoys playing tic tac toe more then civ V for any time longer then 5 minutes and thinks that it has more replay-ability cleary that person is not to fond of the game .

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Suggestion: Read the OP again, and do so while thinking that it's a parody on the complaints rather than the game. You'll see that this works perfectly well. Actually, as in many good parodies, I think that it's impossible to deduce from the OP whether it parodies Civ5, or the criticism of Civ5, or both.

The fact that you immediately took it as a "hate post" (and another poster actually tried to write a factual response to it) tells probably more about the expectations with which you currently approach the forums, than it tells something about the OP itself.

There's so much *woooooosh* in this thread.

Gotta love the people answering seriously and raging at this thread.... Afforess you deliver once again!

I am suprised nobody has mentioned that Tic Tac Toe would be much better if they made it as a Real Time strategy game...

Or at least zoom in from the strategy map to a tactical map that supports combat between the X's and O's just like in Master of Magic.

pat4 said:

Well in his OP he says he has only played 5 games of V. But anyway I'm not posting to bash a single person I am just sick of seeing the same stupid arguments. Call it a bad unfinished game if that is your opinion but comparing it to tic tac toe is just childish.
...

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Dude please try to understand, this thread is the kind of meaningful reaction produced by which can be almost surely considered already the biggest disappointment in gaming history.

I agree in every respect. Civ 5 is to "Civilization" what Simcity Societies was to the Simcity games. And yes I did play those.

Tic-Tac-Toe is horrible, it literally ruined my life. I pre-ordered it, and it wasn't anything like the game's predecessor Tic-Tac. They totally dumbed it down for console-kiddies, the AI stinks and diplomacy? What diplomacy? Look at the UI, what a joke...four crossed lines? C'mon! Totally console ready.

I'm starting a class-action lawsuit. Who's in?

vranasm said:

hmm when i was at university we played a lot of tic-tac-toe variation "connect 5" on unlimited board... now THAT was fun...
and if I remember correctly some peops made some AIs for their projects, but I think connect 5 was a bit tougher for AI since the status tree comes deeper and you need more turns prediction then 2 turns.

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That's how tictactoe is played in my country (Czech Republic) by everyone. The version with 3x3 grid is known here (from American movies), but considered really stupid
Btw, even wikipedia says that, quoting "Players soon discover that best play from both parties leads to a draw. Hence, tic-tac-toe is most often played by young children.".

Playing "connect 5" on virtually unlimited board is something completely different.


Actually what I find most funny now is the fact that playing Civ5 made me think (before this thread) about how would tictactoe work on a hex grid and for few weeks I've beein making a SW for that (so long because I don't have much free time for it). I already had AI for the classic 5-row version and also for 3D version where you have 13 directions.

You Sir, are a true master of parody. I salute you.

SuperJay said:

There's so much *woooooosh* in this thread.

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Yeah. It's amazing, really. I mean, wow.

To be honest, the diplomacy in Tic Tac Toe is probably even worse than Civ V's.

The other issue is that Tic Tac Toe is similarly too easy.

MADDOX already did this, and a lot better.

Really, this is just pathetic.

Toady said:

Gotta love the people answering seriously and raging at this thread.... Afforess you deliver once again!

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Yes, quite a delivery, stealing other people's troll threads and reposting them as their own, that takes a lot of guts.