@TB
Ok so to review the Education property, unlike the crime property I thought it could be used to unlock buildable buildings. However it was explained that while it could do that it also messed up when the education threshold went below. And showed it was buildable again when it wasn't. And even if you tried you could not. Correect?
Well... the original implementation was in error and there was a bug on the other tag that Alberts pointed out and helped me to fix. At this time the other tag may be successfully employed to establish a prerequisite but the text on it should be fixed so that it doesn't state the prerequisite to be the property RATE but rather the property value in the city. That's not that hard so this COULD be done... but...
So you went and commented out that code. So now the auto-build eduction builds still work but the buildable ones do not. This is still works out since the auto-build building still give the education property a purpose and work much like pollution or crime in that they auto-build at different education levels.
As for the system that unlocked buildable buildings, this is no more, however like I said its not so bad because the requirements the buildings had such as requiring a University for a Biology Lab or a Chemistry lab also indirectly did what the education property was suppose to be doing.
The remaining autobuild buildings are a great way to implement the majority of the effect of the property I feel. I'll give some examples of the stats I think they should have below.
I definitely agree that having education prerequisites on buildings is largely covered by other building prerequisites and becomes an overlapping, redundant prerequisite.
Tourism, Luxury and Entertainment properties are set up as properties but do not have any building implementation yet (expect for the Tourism Achievement NW). This is fine for now since its not hurting anything in the mod other than you can see them.
It MAY have some relation to Flinx's issue with the Advisor - there might be a point in the UI where we have put in too many the way it currently is. So perhaps at the moment it might work better if only Education is included. I still feel it would be wise to attempt to modularize the structure (and not all too difficult either.) If nobody else will do it, I will distract myself from the combat mod progression to do it. And if I do it, it'll be a game option instead of simply modular.
Education on the other hand has a real effect on the game thankls to those auto-build building. And even though unlocking buildable buildings with the education property is not working I still think that having it is the mod for release is worth it and works.
Having the property in the release that approaches is fine imo but it should be more thought out and playtested. Right now, testing shows it does little but frustrate.
In addition we could have the health and science buildings require the auto-build buildings instead of the education property. However I think this solution is too messy and gives a too ridged solution. I would rather not have those disabled than try this proposal.
Yeah, ugh.
It was stated that the buildings should go inactive beneath a particular level and this is achieved with other systems with a switch system - all or nothing. Personally, I would rather see buildings become less valuable at lower Education levels rather than go completely inactive. That can be done.
I feel that the set of 20 education auto-building are still worth having and DO add up since they are additive and do not replace each other. I also feel that they could be added-on to to make them more potent if we want to go that way.
Oh yes, definitely. I'm very much in support of making this the core of the process. I've just been told we're going out in a minute so I'll try to work up a document to suggest values for these levels later on so I can make a proper proposal on that.
I like this idea if it can be done. Seems like a great way to help the player visualize whats going on.
What I guess gets me here is MrAzure told us how to do it and apparently tested it successfully on his system before mentioning it so I'm not sure why it wasn't then committed to the SVN... If I'VE got to sort this out that'd kinda suck for me cuz python still confuses me somewhat.
@DH: words for
you in a moment!
This is not entirely true. I have left the science from techs or resources stuff. So while the major focus of these places is to produce education property some still do give science. Just MUCH less than before. I know this feels when playing like the game you have your hand tied behind your back, but overall it should fix the problem of having so much science and speeding through the techs even on slower speeds.
Speeding through the techs could, and I think should, be solved by adjusting the tech costs across the board. Make them cost more and you alleviate the problem. Taking away the research on those buildings entirely not only doesn't quite feel right and violates some standard player expectations in Civ, it also is a little bit of a breach of rationale. I can understand where you're coming from and I'm not against slashing their research values and by making them add to the property you're making them justify their costs a bit more. But I would advise strongly against taking away the BASE values entirely. Leave just a little green at least I'd think.
And if we have a problem with research going too fast (which I feel we somewhat do but when you think about it at the root, this is our disagreement with SGT Slick - he'd prefer build costs force a player to choose what to build carefully while I would prefer tech costs take longer so that more conflict and warfare may be supported within a given era without the tech race so easily overcoming warfare building attempts. The balance, as I see it, is quite simple: Build Costs vs Tech Costs. That's why we were trying to get this alternative Game Speed option setup so that it would support the players who want their challenge on the build side. If we can get it to work we can do another which puts the challenge on the tech side instead which I think from this conversation I can presume you and I would prefer.
Not necessarily. If you do not have enough students to take those classes then even the smart students will not have a class to go to.
Here's the problem... a large city is going to have more population diffusion on the property. Without a population diffusion then all the property really is is a measurement of how quickly you were able to build the buildings that added education. We need a few other ways to drain education levels from the city to make it worthy from a strategic perspective and population makes sense to do this if the property is a representative of averages.
But we must also assume too that although a large city will naturally have a lower education level because of the greater difficulty in handling that many students, it also attracts some of the most educated people from all over. People don't just stay put in one spot. And an average is often a skewed perspective - take the US income level for example, where you have 90% of the wealth owned by 10% of the population making it appear, by how much those few make, that everyone here would crap gold bricks on a bad day. We know there's nothing further from the truth and if you're a common citizen your wealth is actually lower than the global standard. An average education level in a city would work the same way.
So if we propagated the education properties from cities to the Player level (which AIAndy indicated was possible somewhere but I'm not sure how you'd SEE the properties on the player level - and THAT would require an expression tag to setup prereqs on buildings) you could get something that would be a rational building prerequisite value.
However, for these reasons prereqs off the property value of the city itself doesn't seem to make much sense, are a bit redundant, and give our players who must work with even more troublesome prerequisites in C2C than any other mod even more reason to complain. We want to add challenges, yes, but we don't want to make the mod a royal pain in the arse to play. At times, our prereq structure as intricate as it already is, already has.
I wanted to put this but I was not sure how. However on the negative 10 they do have a reduction to War Weariness. So indirectly if you city has a high education level then they will be more upset from war than if they were not educated.
War Weariness increasing with the property makes a lot of sense too. As would Anarchy times. I can find and point out the stability modifiers when I get to the proposal.
Good idea. I also assume that the dumber you get the harder it is to get GP right? Or can that property not be a negative?
Yes definitely. Might even have an effect on Great General emergence too. And it CAN be made negative - well, not the overall GP income no but the % modifier to the GP income can be. I'll look into the tags for those too later.
This is implemented though +/- Flammability, Crime and Disease. This is heavily based on the Sim City model.
+1 on each step is insufficient and it should be population based so should operate on tag uses similar to SGTSlick's traits tags. Buildings can have these effects too. What I mean would be:
1st negative Education Level: +1 Crime / 3 population
2nd negative Education Level: +1 Crime / 2 population (not sure if this would be cumulative or not - if is cumulative then we'd need to simply add +1 Crime/3population at each stage)
3rd negative Education Level: +1 Crime / population
And the opposite achieves negative crime modifiers. Then similar for other propts.
Commerce means gold, science, culture so maybe. I see what you mean it just a slippery slope when it comes to commerce. Especially when we have other properties like Luxury and Tourism which undoubtedly will influence commerce in some way.
Perhaps +increasing % on all YIELDS only would be sufficient.
RE
opulation requires more food at higher education levels:
Cool.
Could you give an example of what you mean?
Ok, rather than say a Healer's Hut must have 150 Education value to be built, use tags on the autobuildings that give the Healer's hut +1 Health at 150 then lower the +2 Health on the Healer's Hut (assuming that's what it has... dunno for sure) to a base of +1 instead so that the AI still knows its a health building. Then maybe give it a bonus +1 at 500 Education or something like that. We have building tags that modify other local buildings right?
I formatted the education properties as mentioned by alfred2.
Put the attached file into a module (maybe tweaks in Hydro's folder) and insert the correct schema.
Education properties do now work, the values are stored over assets changes.
Removed teh file as it coused the Domestic Advisor to stop working!
Just by changing the one bool so that it doesn't lose it's values on asset changes? Please test to see what happens if ONLY the Education property is setup this way and the other new properties are excluded from the file.
It has not been done because I am not modding for C2C any more. I am just tidying up a few things before I move on.
Ok, that sucks but it's not the first time I've heard this from you. This is only one of a great many things that we really need from you. I thought you were working on the extra specialists? That would be REALLY a big milestone for us if that got sorted out and I fear without ya we'll never have it. If your major frustration is with the non-modularization of these new properties I'm sure we can make this work for you with relative ease.
As I mentioned to you and Joseph_II, I will be taking c2c v33.x and making C2C- Evolving Religions. It will take quite awhile as it will require some changes to the cultural system as well as the tech tree. Some of the things I will be adding there should move into c2C without problems (since I build in a modular format).
Restricted Movement (Ancient to Classical only) and the WLBO stuff for Indigenous Peoples (diplomacy through terrorism) are two things I will be having in the mod which should be easily moved into C2C.
The Bad Karma stuff I will probably do as a visiting modder to c2C. They are nice separate bits that can fit in any c2c mod. This includes the Pesky Barbarians by Platyping and the pirate and bandit stuff MrAzure is interested in.
I disagree with the Migrating Great people as it stands but would probably agree to a Migrating Great Person Heritage instead. I got no feedback on Bad People so assumed it was not interesting. The current implementation is to shallow even with Hydro's input so far.
The one thing I will need to work with Thunderbrd on is extending the great people. Adding the Great Hunter and Great Admiral and getting the correct GP heritage (specialists) to give exp to the correct units.
I want the Bad People BUT I was hoping to go about it in another way so we had a little conflict of vision there but I'm nowhere near acting on mine so no I figured I'd worry more about that when it got to that point. (IF ever)
I'm looking forward to working with you on the GP extensions... that'll be really cool.
What would conflict to such a degree that we can't figure out how to option/modularize things out? I'm thinking we may need very similar things when it comes to the changes you're talking about on the cultural and religious stuff so I'd love to talk to you in a great deal of depth about your plans and see if we can't find a way to harmonize them.
In the meantime, isn't the tweak to make the property tab not suck kinda a small fix for a man of your skills?