cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
Hear hear!
I never thought of religions and espionage as being clunky and badly-implemented, but I guess that's just my opinion - I was more than happy to finally conquer the world in a great Buddhist crusade!
IGN Preview of CiV
- Thread starter aftrubeliever85
- Start date
Hear hear!
I never thought of religions and espionage as being clunky and badly-implemented, but I guess that's just my opinion - I was more than happy to finally conquer the world in a great Buddhist crusade!
Thorburne
Centurion
I concurr with that... they should have worked on improving the systems instead of yanking them out. I am getting very depressed!
Well thats good but I guess from what they're saying Civ V is going to be a whole new beast so to speak
bonafide11
Worker
I agree with this statement -- with the new combat system, the AI has to know how to set up formations. They can't just throw random units around to win. The combat is going to be much more tactical, I believe, and it'll be harder to program the AI to fight in formations rather than sending stacks. So the key to whether this combat system works depends on how well Firaxis programs the AI.
bonafide11
Worker
Religion I'm disappointed is gone, but the espionage system didn't do much for me. I'm sure spies will still be units, but I think they got rid of the system of spending gold to build up espionage points. I never was a big fan of that system.
Thirded.
Shiggs713
Immortal
I wouldn't oppose that, so long as that not the only option. Some of these we already know, but in my opinion the best things they could possibly do to keep ciV as the most moddable series ever:
1) Use the same code from civ4 (XML, C++), hopefully python will be there also.
2) Provide a GUI for editing XML.. nothing special here, just make it easy to change attributes for novices.
3) Release at least as much source code if not more than they did for civ4.
4) Keep the Gambryo graphics so we can still edit in blender and nifskope for free
5) provide an external model/skin editor similar to the one in Spore. This would be the biggest boon to scenario mods and the like.
6) keep using dds textures. not sure what other options there even are, but this is easy enough.
7) maybe the most important, provide a world builder that actually works, and with more options and functions than before
that way for example you could do XML by hand as we all love to do, or you could use a GUI if you are doing simple changes. At least allow us to still use blender, but if not provide something better and more powerful. Seriously its looks like a small graphics change relatively from civ4 to civ5, so why complicate things?
back to the religions/espionage discussion.
If I were to really break it down I would say more like the espionage was an afterthought/poorly implemented. Spies are nearly pointless, commerce is much better spent on research than espionage, the benefits of high espionage is negligible. Until you can build jails, intelligence agency's ect. its a choice between the commerce types. I'd say most people go full throttle research, that is if you are trying to win.
Religion in civ4 was not bad, but just too static of a feel. I guess its supposed to be that way. Maybe all it was missing was more religious events or something like that. I could totally understand why they would remove religion though, its just too complex to truly model it accurately. We always end up with buddist napoleon or some other lame.
Thorburne
Centurion
And that is fine by me... they can release all of the advanced methods of modding, as long as they release a GUI for the more basic stuff. Basically, what I want is a GOOD world builder, a GUI for modifying the basic attributes of the various elements (like civs, units, etc.) and a simple GUI for creating basic to moderate scenarios would be nice (including a simple way to create/add new elements (like civs, units, etc). Beyond that, the more advanced tools and scripting should be available as well.
To clarify what I mean about "basic to moderate scenarios", basically:
- Basic Scenario - Scenario using on-hand/default resources
- Moderate Scenario - Scenario with elements not found in basic library. In other words creating new leaders and units not found in core game. May require some scripting (for events and such) or knowledge of rendering (for leaders and units, unless basic tools are released allowing the creation of these elements... would be nice, but not pressing)
- Advanced - Scenarios with game changing elements that require coding.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I hate the Civ espionage system. Good riddance.
Thorburne
Centurion
Taking it away isn't improving it!
cf_nz
Prince
I think you're over-reacting to claim this as 'dumbing-down', I view it more as a shift in focus towards diplomacy. Religion limited diplomacy a lot, thus it's gone. I must admit I'm completely unfazed.
I can't comment to much on espionage as I really didn't utilise it much in Civ IV. I'd be surprised if there were no forms of espionage in Civ V, even if it's a simple spy mechanic similar to Civ Rev.
mjs0
The 4th X
Sometimes I have to remind myself that Civ4 vanilla was actually missing quite a few elements that were in Civ3 such as espionage, armies, pollution, bombard, as well as many of the civs, leaders, wonders, units and buildings.
Some of these have since been reinstated, some have been replaced and some will never return (we hope). I'm sure the same will happen with Civ5, the vanilla release of any new version will always be missing some of the features of the previous fully expanded one.
Will I miss those dropped features? Probably, but trying to balance them all in one massive initial version would be dangerous at best and at worst (the way an experienced doom monger like me would see it) a sure fire recipe for disaster.
After a few months of experience with the vanilla version in the field, and at least one essential patch, work will begin on an expansion pack that will: reintroduce some of the dropped features, fix some of the balance issues introduced with vanilla, and wow us with some shiny new features.
If we are lucky there will be another expansion to finish the version off (because the first expansion always sucks!).
I'm looking forward to trying another take on the Civ brand, I hope the journey will be as enjoyable as it was with 1 through 4. I know that for some it will be a huge disappointment and I really hope I'm not one of them. Still, I will go out on a limb here and predict that:
Some of these have since been reinstated, some have been replaced and some will never return (we hope). I'm sure the same will happen with Civ5, the vanilla release of any new version will always be missing some of the features of the previous fully expanded one.
Will I miss those dropped features? Probably, but trying to balance them all in one massive initial version would be dangerous at best and at worst (the way an experienced doom monger like me would see it) a sure fire recipe for disaster.
After a few months of experience with the vanilla version in the field, and at least one essential patch, work will begin on an expansion pack that will: reintroduce some of the dropped features, fix some of the balance issues introduced with vanilla, and wow us with some shiny new features.
If we are lucky there will be another expansion to finish the version off (because the first expansion always sucks!).
I'm looking forward to trying another take on the Civ brand, I hope the journey will be as enjoyable as it was with 1 through 4. I know that for some it will be a huge disappointment and I really hope I'm not one of them. Still, I will go out on a limb here and predict that:
- some people will upgrade and be happy,
- some will not be happy until the fully patched fully expanded Civ5 is available,
(at which point Civ6 will be announced and there will be something else to grumble about since Civ5 is now perfect and Civ6 will be a hollow shell in comparison because it is missing feature X) - some people will only be happy when their favourite mod is available
...and of course... - some people will stay on Civ4 and claim it will always be superior.
Seriously, if you ask me, the religion gameplay in Civ4 was terrible. Whether or not you founded an early religion was entirely based on luck (unless you play at low difficulty levels). The mechanics of actually working with the religion once you had it were lame, too.
You build a bunch of generic buildings that are all identical to each other, separated only by their religion name and icon. These buildings give you some pretty minor bonuses, adding little or nothing to your strategy unless you plan to exploit the stacking of cathedrals for a cultural victory.
Overall, I could live without it. Actually, I'm glad it's gone.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
To each his own.
Personally I'm really angry at the loss of religions - really really really really really really angry, but I'm pretty sure it'll still be a great game regardless. Plus, they finally kicked Mao out (no offense if you like and/or support him, I just hated having a modern leader for China all this time), so it can't be all that bad. If worse comes to worse I'll just hope someone makes a good religion mod.
Personally I'm really angry at the loss of religions - really really really really really really angry, but I'm pretty sure it'll still be a great game regardless. Plus, they finally kicked Mao out (no offense if you like and/or support him, I just hated having a modern leader for China all this time), so it can't be all that bad. If worse comes to worse I'll just hope someone makes a good religion mod.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
Chongli, you will get *no* argument from me that Religion in Civ4 had its problems, but so did culture when it made its first appearance in Civ3. They didn't get rid of it, though, they improved it instead-I want them to do the same with Religion. Make it less random by requiring you to found it with a Prophet (which in itself would require you to make early religion a strategy, by focusing on improvements & social policies which boost the production of Prophets); make religion-based diplomacy penalties more based on the social policies & in-game actions of the civs involved (so you might get no penalty for having different religions, but a large penalty if you have a habit of performing Inquisitions against cities which contain the other civs religion-i.e. religious persecution). See what I mean? Plenty of room to make Religion even *better* than it already was (& it was already pretty good to begin with, IMHO-an opinion strongly backed by several polls at this site), rather than just chucking it away.
I also can't understand people's issues with Espionage. Vanilla definitely had a "tacked-on" feel about it, but by BtS it was *really* good. You didn't have to use gold for espionage, you just needed to divert money into espionage if you wanted to be exceptionally good at it (just as with culture & science). If it lacked anything, it was XP & promotions for spies.
So, sorry, but I *do* see the complete removal of religion & espionage as a dumbing down of the franchise-& I don't see how it will significantly improve diplomacy.
I also can't understand people's issues with Espionage. Vanilla definitely had a "tacked-on" feel about it, but by BtS it was *really* good. You didn't have to use gold for espionage, you just needed to divert money into espionage if you wanted to be exceptionally good at it (just as with culture & science). If it lacked anything, it was XP & promotions for spies.
So, sorry, but I *do* see the complete removal of religion & espionage as a dumbing down of the franchise-& I don't see how it will significantly improve diplomacy.
EmpireOfCats
Death to Giant Robots
But some of us don't like to fight all the time. Some of those some of us are worried now because everybody keeps talking about something called "Panzer General" and religion is gone and espionage, too (which, to be fair, was pretty useless).
We need some sort of a demo video soon.
I don't know. I'm not a fan of GPP (great people points) either. They are way too abstract. I think the game should focus more on realistic quanta and minimize abstract ones. Gold, lumber, iron, copper, stone, food. Hard resources that you should be able to stockpile and put towards real projects.
Also, get rid of the distinction between
and 
. That's just silly.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
OK, so this is my own feelings about the announced features to date
Things I *really* love about Civ5:
-improved diplomacy (esp. the ability to trade land)
-AI Civs who pursue different agendas than simply "winning" (even better if they combine it with the civ-specific victories from Rhye's Mod!)
-Hexes instead of Tiles.
-Differential rates of land acquisition.
-Graphics.
-City States. (Though I really hope they make them like the minor races of BotF!)
Things I *really* dislike about Civ5:
-removal of religion.
-removal of espionage.
-only 1 leader per civilization.
Things I'm still on the fence with about Civ5:
-Social Policies. I *really* loved civics, but often found them too limiting (esp. economic & government civics). However, I'm still not convinced that SP's will be a good replacement.
-1 unit per hex. I would love to see an end to Stacks of Doom, but I'm not convinced that such an extreme, hard cap is the way to go.
Aussie.
Things I *really* love about Civ5:
-improved diplomacy (esp. the ability to trade land)
-AI Civs who pursue different agendas than simply "winning" (even better if they combine it with the civ-specific victories from Rhye's Mod!)
-Hexes instead of Tiles.
-Differential rates of land acquisition.
-Graphics.
-City States. (Though I really hope they make them like the minor races of BotF!)
Things I *really* dislike about Civ5:
-removal of religion.
-removal of espionage.
-only 1 leader per civilization.
Things I'm still on the fence with about Civ5:
-Social Policies. I *really* loved civics, but often found them too limiting (esp. economic & government civics). However, I'm still not convinced that SP's will be a good replacement.
-1 unit per hex. I would love to see an end to Stacks of Doom, but I'm not convinced that such an extreme, hard cap is the way to go.
Aussie.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
Sorry, Chongli, I simply cannot agree with you. It is the abstracts (Great People, Culture, Golden Ages, Religion, Civics) which truly make Civilization IV such an amazing addition to the franchise. Before that, it was really just a numbers game-who had the most cities, the most units &-by the time of Civ3-the most resources. How else do we deal with all those individuals that had such a massive impact on society-a far greater impact than all the money, cities & armies combined? What you've described sounds like a return to the relatively boring "nuts & bolts", number crunching affair we had from Civ1 to Civ3. If thats all you want from your civ games, then I recommend you go & play them instead.
Also, as someone who was often behind in the lead-up to the Industrial Era, I found Espionage to be *very* important. Especially due to the fact that I could often do it in such a way that it looked like one of the leaders who did the act
! BtS Espionage was often a really *great* game leveler 
!
Aussie.
Also, as someone who was often behind in the lead-up to the Industrial Era, I found Espionage to be *very* important. Especially due to the fact that I could often do it in such a way that it looked like one of the leaders who did the act
! BtS Espionage was often a really *great* game leveler !Aussie.
You seem to have mis-characterized my position. I found most of those abstract concepts to be extremely exploitable and totally out to lunch in the realism department. Now don't get me wrong, I know it's totally unreasonable to expect a perfectly realistic experience.
What really bothers me is the totally nonsensical idea of running a hodgepodge of seemingly disparate civics in order to maximize specialists and farm great people and lightbulb them or save them for a perfectly timed golden age. The effects you can achieve with such a strategy are nigh-indistinguishable from magic.
Please tell me, at what point in history did any leader ever do this? The answer is none. No leader has ever done this. In real life, you cannot farm "great people" because in real life, such "great people" do not exist. Even the greatest minds in history do not have the magic powers of Civ's great people.
What I really want from a Civ game is an experience that truly feels like I'm leading a real civilization. I'm not all about "nuts & bolts". I'm all about strategies, tradeoffs and problem solving. Real resources, if properly implemented (and not infinite like Civ4's) lead to real challenges and require real problem solving skills. These are among the toughest challenges real life leaders have to face. Abstract resources that grant magical powers are a cop-out, something that would've led to the downfall of any of the historical leaders this game idolizes.
Similar threads
