From Emperor to Demigod

ahman said:

Here's a suggestion: hurry to literature, rush the great library with the leader, switch to monarchy, 0% science and use all gold to rush city improvements or military (or pay for a large army). You can't outresearch the AI on demigod anyway, so use the gold to develop or expand your empire. With such a small map I see no reason to build expensive libraries, marketplaces, harbors, aqueducts etc, put all shields into military and dominate.

I wouldn't feel safe with all those warriors. Unless you're planning to mass upgrade them to swordmen when you get iron, build the best units available: spearmen and horsemen. 20 shields extra per city for 2 spearmen instead of 2 warriors isn't much. Cities without barracks shouldn't build defenders/attackers, they can build catapults.

With all that fresh water available, it seems like a waste to build two of the three best cities away from it.

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Nice plan. Which two cities did I misplace though? I built one on a hill just next to my incense so that it can support the one I will build adjacent to Carthage's spice. That's what it's for. With Artemis I get that spice with culture. If I can do that, get the resources and luxury I want from India then I'll have four luxuries, iron and horses for myself and for sale.

walletta said:

Nice plan. Which two cities did I misplace though?

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Copán and Tikal. The cities closest to the capital are the least corrupt, they get the most luxury and should be the largest. Your core cities should be pop-12. Here's some more suggestions and descisions, comments are welcome.

1050 BC:

Many undeveloped tiles, all cities was set to build a worker as fast as possible, except the ones that will lose too many shields. Moved SGL towards Calakmul, it's a pretty uncorrupt city (or will be in monarchy) that needs the culture for a fish and several other good tiles. I'm rushing the pyramids next turn for a worker and population explosion, we already have the land area! Then going through anarchy into monarchy to be able to irrigate grassland = more growth.

With no great library plans, I traded code of laws and map making for monarchy with carthage. With currency we'll be in ancient times and can extort engineering and feudalism when making peace with someone. Started to research currency at minimum speed, now making 26 gold (6.5 shields) per turn.

We can see iron in the south, scouting isn't urgent but when military protection is better we'll send a few regular warriors in different directions, to know the map before going to war.

Lanzelot said:

By the way, if you will excuse me, let me recommend some other literary attempt of mine, a Training Day Game, where I think I outlined some basics for fast domination games quite well:
Asterix the Gaul -- Or: How to get the biggest bang out of the Gallic Swordsman
A 50 AD domination victory with the Celts on a not-so-easy continents map and a start position that appeared quite weak at first. (Only one bonus resource: a deer forest.)

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Thanks Lanzelot. Jumping to the last page of "Asterix" there was another juicy tip: Using the City Governor to "Manage Citizen Moods" in conquered cities so resisters cowed by the garrison won't turn into unhappy faces next turn. Instead the Governor turns them into entertainers immediately so the place avoids riots that would otherwise occur. Neat!

Definitely must read more of Asterix's incredible adventures as time permits.

Edit: From page 4's spoiler of your first turnset there's another blasphemy: "We can already see two excellent sites for future settlements, 2 tiles to the E, where there is a nice location on the river with (at least) two floodplains for fast growth, two BGs for good production and lots of commerce due to the river."

Egad! Who'd ever think of crowding their capital like that? But on second thought it makes sense, long as each city has 12 tiles to work (or share).

QUESTIONS:
1) About that deer W of Entremont: How did you get 4 fpt out of it in Despo? Game is only +1f, even after irrigating the 2f grassland it's +4f, then -1(Despo penalty)=3fpt. Or am I missing something? (Sure, but what?)
2) It took you 40 turns to set up the settler pump. Would you have enough time on Demigod to do this before getting hemmed in by the AI(s) with that fructifying extra starting settler?
3) Likewise the Republic slingshot. It took you 56 turns with Republic free from Philo. Is it doable on Demigod?
a) How come everybody picks CoL before Philo? Wouldn't it be safer to research Philo first, in order to minimize the risk of an AI Civ getting it, especially on Demigod? Thanks.

Sent some workers from large, outer cities (very corrupt anyway) to the core, and to Calakmul which needs to grow and shouldn't build it's own workers. Building roads first for protection. Moved horsemen to the inner cities, spearmen to the outer and warriors in between for martial law. The pyramids started a golden age, no anarchy for 20 turns. I'm a registered sex offender. Building aqueducts in Copán and Tikal, then harbors because there's not enough land tiles for them. 6 flasks from 10% science in GA is a waste, made a scientist in Bonampak instead. Now +42 gold per turn.

ahman said:

Sent some workers from large, outer cities (very corrupt anyway) to the core, and to Calakmul which needs to grow and shouldn't build it's own workers. Building roads first for protection. Moved horsemen to the inner cities, spearmen to the outer and warriors in between for martial law. The pyramids started a golden age, no anarchy for 20 turns. I'm a registered sex offender. Building aqueducts in Copán and Tikal, then harbors because there's not enough land tiles for them. 6 flasks from 10% science in GA is a waste, made a scientist in Bonampak instead. Now +42 gold per turn.

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What?

How did you make a scientist in Bonampak? Did you get to another tech first or is there some secret trick for getting scientists? Or do you mean you just put a member of the populace to work as a scientist. I know, I'll load the game and take a look! I dislike the pre-monarchy GA TBH. That goes against the pyramids idea imho. It's either the GL or the Temple for me.

walletta said:

I dislike the pre-monarchy GA TBH. That goes against the pyramids idea imho.

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You don't have any bonus grassland or river tiles anyway. They're the only normal tiles where the GA makes you lose 1 shield or 1 gold respectively in despotism. Forests too, but you shouldn't work them now when you're growing. Even if you had 5 BG or 10 river tiles, an early GA would be better than a later one with all that undeveloped land.

ahman said:

You don't have any bonus grassland or river tiles anyway. They're the only normal tiles where the GA makes you lose 1 shield or 1 gold respectively in despotism. Forests too, but you shouldn't work them now when you're growing. Even if you had 5 BG or 10 river tiles, an early GA would be better than a later one with all that undeveloped land.

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The capital is a lot more productive post-anarchy. I certainly agree that I need to have built more workers than I have but if I overdo that then I get picked on at an early stage by one or other neighbour and it tends to throw my plans off.

Speaking more broadly, I must say my play has come on by leaps and bounds since this thread started. I have almost no problem at all getting well into the game, whereas to begin with I was getting knocked off pretty quick. I still need to slow down and make deeper calculations but I figure I have absorbed the principle even if not the practise. I keep finding myself with shield overruns where, with a little forethought, I could have used those shields elsewhere. This is a key aspect.

Is there a rough and ready way to calculate the build time for something substantial (a wonder or a university or something) that takes account of the fact that the city will grow in the meantime and its output will rise? I mean a rule of thumb rather than some complicated equation which I won't understand.

walletta said:

The capital is a lot more productive post-anarchy.

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Any city is more productive in monarchy than in despotism, in GA or not in GA, but the question is does the GA itself make you lose gold and shields because you're in despotism? In this case no. The core cities are very soon all pop-7 with the help of the pyramid. Making them grow more during the GA would be a waste, food isn't affected by GA, only gold and shields.

ahman said:

Any city is more productive in monarchy than in despotism, in GA or not in GA, but the question is does the GA itself make you lose gold and shields because you're in despotism? In this case no. The core cities are very soon all pop-7 with the help of the pyramid. Making them grow more during the GA would be a waste, food isn't affected by GA, only gold and shields.

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You may be onto something ...

ahman said:

Copán and Tikal. The cities closest to the capital are the least corrupt, they get the most luxury and should be the largest. Your core cities should be pop-12. Here's some more suggestions and descisions, comments are welcome.

snip

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I checked and discovered these towns are right where Lanzelot told me to put them I think the idea is they are supposed to share useful tiles with Chichen Itza.

Copan and Tikal are good sites, what's wrong with them? They'll need an aqueduct, but you can't expect your complete first ring to be on a river, can you?! The big advantage is, that they don't need much worker power: lots of excellent coastal tiles for 2f3c. Lots of income in the long run.

ahman said:

an early GA would be better than a later one with all that undeveloped land.

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I must confess that I don't understand this statement. To me it rather looks the opposite way: an early GA doesn't make sense here, because a) the cities are still too small and b) the land is still too undeveloped. You want your GA to yield the maximum output, so as many citizens working as many improved tiles as possible (and of course no despotism penalty).

BTW: why on earth are you going for Monarchy? That's a lousy government. As you are still open with regard to victory condition and as you don't plan to lead war against all three nations at once, Republic is the obvious choice. On the land tiles (as you don't have any rivers in your territory) it provides 100% more commerce (2 instead of 1), on the sea tiles it still provides 50% more commerce (3 instead of 2). Run this through the multipliers library/university, and the difference is enormous. The little extra unit upkeep doesn't matter that much.

Lanzelot said:

Copan and Tikal are good sites, what's wrong with them? They'll need an aqueduct, but you can't expect your complete first ring to be on a river, can you?! The big advantage is, that they don't need much worker power: lots of excellent coastal tiles for 2f3c. Lots of income in the long run.



I must confess that I don't understand this statement. To me it rather looks the opposite way: an early GA doesn't make sense here, because a) the cities are still too small and b) the land is still too undeveloped. You want your GA to yield the maximum output, so as many citizens working as many improved tiles as possible (and of course no despotism penalty).

BTW: why on earth are you going for Monarchy? That's a lousy government. As you are still open with regard to victory condition and as you don't plan to lead war against all three nations at once, Republic is the obvious choice. On the land tiles (as you don't have any rivers in your territory) it provides 100% more commerce (2 instead of 1), on the sea tiles it still provides 50% more commerce (3 instead of 2). Run this through the multipliers library/university, and the difference is enormous. The little extra unit upkeep doesn't matter that much.

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Well, two out of three ain't bad (city placement and later GA ++ monarchy -- ). I went for because I have to wage an extended war against India to get her iron (with wine and extra horses a useful by-product). I take it you disapprove

walletta said:

What I don't get, Lanzelot, is your idea of seizing other Civ's wonders. Won't their cities culture right back to them if you don't raze and replace them. Btw. what I tend to do is abandon them rather than raze. Does the AI see any difference or is equally outraged by either method?

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You need to be prepared to retake them once or twice. But with a couple of citizens of your nationality and a lib or temple it should eventually stop flipping. (Best is of course, if you can eliminate the AI altogether, that puts an immediate end to all flipping...)
BTW: if you manage to get an early Artemis, like here via SGL, flipping will not be much of a problem anymore even on Demigod.

As to abandoning cities, I'm not quite sure. I think I have read somewhere, that it's as bad as razing, if the town is still inhabited by 100% (or more than 50%?!?) of their population. Can't remember exactly. But with one of their citizen and two of your own at the time of disbanding, you should be on the safe side. (Though when going for a military win, the AI attitude shouldn't worry you too much...)

Lanzelot said:

You need to be prepared to retake them once or twice. But with a couple of citizens of your nationality and a lib or temple it should eventually stop flipping. (Best is of course, if you can eliminate the AI altogether, that puts an immediate end to all flipping...)
BTW: if you manage to get an early Artemis, like here via SGL, flipping will not be much of a problem anymore even on Demigod.

As to abandoning cities, I'm not quite sure. I think I have read somewhere, that it's as bad as razing, if the town is still inhabited by 100% (or more than 50%?!?) of their population. Can't remember exactly. But with one of their citizen and two of your own at the time of disbanding, you should be on the safe side. (Though when going for a military win, the AI attitude shouldn't worry you too much...)

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Helpful. Thanks again.

570AD and after a short war with India in which I picked up extra horses and wine (but no iron) I was set upon by England. Another short campaign netted their iron and then the big boys weighed in - Carthage - but they were beaten off pretty easily too, with the gain of their spice city (abandoned/razed whatever) which gives me one extra for sale.

I used the GSL to build the TofA and then, as planned, built the Great Wall followed by the A of W which was pretty cool as it means every new city comes equipped with barracks, walls and a temple free! I also managed to crank out the workshop (my GA was put to good use). As I now have 40% of the world's pop I think it's already game over and the rest should be technique, in which department, there is much room for improvement.

I have mercilessly cheated, of course, and I make no bones about it, but now I've seen what a demigod game looks like and understood the vast room for improvement in all departments (and the existence of hitherto unknown departments ) I am ready to go back to playing Sim City. Just kidding. I was crap at that too.

walletta said:

but now I've seen what a demigod game looks like and understood the vast room for improvement in all departments (and the existence of hitherto unknown departments ) I am ready to go back to playing Sim City.

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But feels good, that first win on Demigod, doesn't it?

Lanzelot said:

But feels good, that first win on Demigod, doesn't it?

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It would but since my last post another 570 years have passed. The good news is I just captured London which has the Colossus, the GL, Shakespeare's Theatre and the Mausoleum. Not so good is that Carthage has slightly more land people than the Maya and a tech lead too. India and England are both busted. I will get to keep these goodies because England has only one city left and it's small, weak and deep within my territory, a very long way from London . I guess a good strategy now would be to bully England and/or India into coughing up more techs.

Question, although I don't get the culture points from these new GWs, do I get whatever surviving benefits that go with them? Does Shakespeare make my people happy for instance (even though they must travel to the farthest corner of the empire, without rail, to see his plays ?

This is fun!

More news from the front . Carthage helped me out by polishing off England, leaving me in secure possession of their wonders. The military advisor told me my army was weak compared to Carthage, even when I did a mass upgrade to rifleman, so I looked at attacking India which is down to four or five cities, one of them, Delhi, a real prize as it has about 5 GWs and Bangalore has one or two more. However, Carthage and India had a MDP so war with India was out. Then Carthage declared war on me - not good - but India was willing to ally with me in return for horses (the same horses I stole from India about a thousand years ago, actually ) which is very good indeed. India will do all the expensive offensive fighting while I sit back and pick off those foolish enough to violate the sacred soil. So far, Carthage's assault seems pretty feeble. I guess most of its army is on garrison duty looking after it's large array of cities. I will soak up the pressure for a while and then hopefully organise a little pillaging. I am an artillery man at bottom, like Napoleon , and once I get my hands on enough cannon and concentrate it there will be no stopping me.

Lanzelot said:

Copan and Tikal are good sites, what's wrong with them? They'll need an aqueduct, but you can't expect your complete first ring to be on a river, can you?! The big advantage is, that they don't need much worker power: lots of excellent coastal tiles for 2f3c. Lots of income in the long run.

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What's right with them? They're making the more shield-powerful cities more corrupt. A tile with 2 food + 1 shield + 2 gold is better than one with 2 food + 3 gold. Expand in-land, and if/when the AIs boxes you in either peacefully build costal cities or take their cities. Expanding in-land is even more important with all that fresh water available.

Lanzelot said:

BTW: why on earth are you going for Monarchy? That's a lousy government. As you are still open with regard to victory condition and as you don't plan to lead war against all three nations at once, Republic is the obvious choice. On the land tiles (as you don't have any rivers in your territory) it provides 100% more commerce (2 instead of 1), on the sea tiles it still provides 50% more commerce (3 instead of 2). Run this through the multipliers library/university, and the difference is enormous. The little extra unit upkeep doesn't matter that much.

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Unless you like to play in a certain way (peacefully) the fastest victory condition on this small map is obvious. You're not being aggressive, you're dominating. In republic you'll lose 1 unit support per town compared to monarchy (1 vs 2) and the same per city (3 vs 4). With 10 cities and 2 gpt per extra unit instead of 1 in monarchy, that's -10 gpt in republic, and even more when you start to take AI cities. If we assume that you protect your cities with only 1 (fast) unit each, you'll also lose 1 martial law per town/city in republic = -10 gpt more. Total = -20 gpt.

Without libraries and marketplaces (assuming that we're going full war right away) the uncorrupted capital will make 12 gpt extra in republic, one per tile. The closest 4 core cities is somewhat corrupt and is gonna make maybe only 8 gpt extra each in republic, and the corrupt cities maybe 6 extra gold together. Total = 12 + 8 * 4 + 6 = +50 gpt, but that's when the core cities are all at pop-12, before that there's gonna be a lot of workers running around and losing much gpt, and it's gonna take a lot of time to get them to pop-12 without the pyramids.

50 - 20 = 30 gpt is the gain in republic, but you'll start losing on that government when you have more than 30 units over the supported limit. With a war strategy that shouldn't take very long. But with a peaceful strategy, sure, republic is better.

Not sure I entirely understand the finer points of the back and forth there but, oh brother, did I over estimate my position. I am now at war with Carthage, which has tanks, planes and half the map. India is in alliance with me. My only plan is to fight a long defensive war while building my own Air force, killing expensive things with cheaper ones (flak -v- bombers, artillery -v- tanks) and hoping to go on the rampage later. So far, I have minced most of the first wave of tanks. Knowing the AI, that was probably its main thrust so I expect a short pause while it rustles up more iron.

Oh, I lost London and all those nice GWs. It was in an indefensible spot so I ruthlessly destroyed it when capture was inevitable

Oh, and I have two armies in the field, one of riflemen and one of infantry with a third in the pipeline, which may have to be cavalry so I can go tank killing.