From demigod to klutz

Here I will post occasional news of my adventures as an aspiring demigod as well questions for passing kind souls with pity in their hearts to address. My first effort has already been abandoned after discovering the Iroqouis had no ready access to fresh water or horses . I beat off an early invasion by Egypt without loss of even a unit let alone anything worse, but the prospect of trying to overcome these two handicaps is just too much, so

Game 1 (Iroquois, large continental map 80% land) is hereby aborted.

First question: if you have no water and you build an aqueduct can you irrigate?

Btw. I didn't mention just how bad that start position was - the nearest water was about 7 towns away on the far side of a range of hills and mountains with no irrigation path to bring it across to my side .

No. You need to wait until Electricity before you can irrigate without fresh water. So that's way in the Industrial Age...

Lanzelot said:

No. You need to wait until Electricity before you can irrigate without fresh water. So that's way in the Industrial Age...

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So I can build an aqueduct, grow passed size 6, but not actually water the plants. LOL. Thanks.

walletta said:

So I can build an aqueduct, grow passed size 6, but not actually water the plants. LOL. Thanks.

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There's a thread called "What did you learn from Civ3?" (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=128462&highlight=learned+civ3) Quite a few howlers and knee-slappers included. Dunno if your observation is in there, but it should be.

Jivilov said:

There's a thread called "What did you learn from Civ3?" (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=128462&highlight=learned+civ3) Quite a few howlers and knee-slappers included. Dunno if your observation is in there, but it should be.

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Looks like fun over there!

If I have 0 rivers in my first 5-10 cities, I just restart a new game

It's bad enough using other tiles to get water to your cities

Most of your cities should be on rivers, terrain permitting...

RS8 said:

If I have 0 rivers in my first 5-10 cities, I just restart a new game

It's bad enough using other tiles to get water to your cities

Most of your cities should be on rivers, terrain permitting...

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I have since started two games (in succession) with the most amazing start positions - cows, bonus grass, rivers, game, luxuries within the capital radius .... But I have reverted to the Maya and wonder whether the game favours them somehow. Both games were aborted because I was just fooling around and playing way too fast to manage things properly.

walletta said:

I have since started two games (in succession) with the most amazing start positions - cows, bonus grass, rivers, game, luxuries within the capital radius .... But I have reverted to the Maya and wonder whether the game favours them somehow. Both games were aborted because I was just fooling around and playing way too fast to manage things properly.

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I don't even bother playing with the Maya, they're sickeningly over the top

Agricutural & Industrialist compliment each other perfectly

Even more so because creating settlers and using workers properly are the two things the AI is worst at

Funny thing is, the AI plays Agricultural civilisations reasonably well, but seems to do better with Sumeria, Inca, Aztecs than it does with the Maya

Just my observations

RS8 said:

I don't even bother playing with the Maya, they're sickeningly over the top

Agricutural & Industrialist compliment each other perfectly

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Good point, never thought about that. 1.5 times more food if you build next to fresh water matches 1.5 faster workers = 1.5 faster growth. An enormous advantage.

When playing Maya, I start a war as soon as I have some catapults and javelin throwers. On demigod there's a nice continous stream of enemy units to enslave. Two slaves from six killed enemy units means one less worker to build, that can make a shield, and maybe even a gold or two, per turn working as a citizen instead. Add to that the gold you don't have to pay for the worker, 1 gpt in monarchy or 2 gpt in republic.

And your neighbour has lost 6 * 20 = 120 shields (spearmen) or 6 * 30 = 180 (swordmen) in the process, while you have lost almost nothing with the help of enough catapults and using the terrain to your advantage. War is fun.

ahman said:

Good point, never thought about that. 1.5 times more food if you build next to fresh water matches 1.5 faster workers = 1.5 faster growth. An enormous advantage.

When playing Maya, I start a war as soon as I have some catapults and javelin throwers. On demigod there's a nice continous stream of enemy units to enslave. Two slaves from six killed enemy units means one less worker to build, that can make a shield, and maybe even a gold or two, per turn working as a citizen instead. Add to that the gold you don't have to pay for the worker, 1 gpt in monarchy or 2 gpt in republic.

And your neighbour has lost 6 * 20 = 120 shields (spearmen) or 6 * 30 = 180 (swordmen) in the process, while you have lost almost nothing with the help of enough catapults and using the terrain to your advantage. War is fun.

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You expand twice as fast, basically

More cities = more money = more science = better units = victory type of your choice

Slave workers are a nice bonus, but for most civlisations, just a bonus

Maya can get them for free, and from Barbarians if I remember right

RS8 said:

I don't even bother playing with the Maya, they're sickeningly over the top

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You can say that again. Btw it's off-topic but I got a question about cultural wins:

What happens if a Civ gets knocked out of the game? Do its culture points count anymore, or are they removed from calculation?

Reason I ask is 'cuz in a current game (Portugal on Emperor, standard map) the Maya were accumulating culture like crazy. In order to forestall a culture win I invaded and--after much bitter combat--deracinated their biggest cities. Question is, if Maya are destroyed what happens to their culture points? Would the next-cultured Civ have to get twice as many as Maya, or does Maya's score no longer count? Thanks.

Jivilov said:

You can say that again. Btw it's off-topic but I got a question about cultural wins:

What happens if a Civ gets knocked out of the game? Do its culture points count anymore, or are they removed from calculation?

Reason I ask is 'cuz in a current game (Portugal on Emperor, standard map) the Maya were accumulating culture like crazy. In order to forestall a culture win I invaded and--after much bitter combat--deracinated their biggest cities. Question is, if Maya are destroyed what happens to their culture points? Would the next-cultured Civ have to get twice as many as Maya, or does Maya's score no longer count? Thanks.

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They are no longer in the game, so their culture no longer counts

They can't win by cutural victory - they don't exist anymore

You will notice this when a civilisation gets 2 or 3 wonders in the same city, probably making it the city with the most culture (not that the AI aims for cultural victory...)

Then you take that city - it is no longer the city with the most culture

Captured wonders and cities don't provide culture etc - previous culture is not given/transferred to you - you start at 0 for each captured city

Same thing for if you wipe them out

They still have histographic points though

Despite finding they are considered unfairly easy to play I persist with the Maya. The game seems to give them some humongous starting positions. My latest screw-up started with two cows, one fish, some bonus grass and fresh water. One lux was only a couple of tiles away and horses and iron were within defensible distance. I motored on up to no. 1 Civ in terms of pop. by the Middle Ages but picked a fight with India at the wrong time and without proper preparation. Game ditched and no reloads allowed. In my next effort I will try and pre-build something, which I have been neglecting.

I'm playing on an 8 civ Pangea. I don't like naval play nor keeping track of 15 other Civs.

RS8 said:

They are no longer in the game, so their culture no longer counts

They can't win by cutural victory - they don't exist anymore

You will notice this when a civilisation gets 2 or 3 wonders in the same city, probably making it the city with the most culture (not that the AI aims for cultural victory...)

Then you take that city - it is no longer the city with the most culture

Captured wonders and cities don't provide culture etc - previous culture is not given/transferred to you - you start at 0 for each captured city

Same thing for if you wipe them out

They still have histographic points though

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Thanks RS. You're absolutely right. After China finished off Maya, China became the culture leader so I had to amphibiously invade them as well. By the time I finally got a domination win in 1974 AD--thanks to my doggie-barf start on a narrow peninsula with no fresh water, having to use a "poor man's army" of archers, spears and catapults to wrest Iron from Arabia--they had a little over 100,000 points and I had a tad over 52,000. The French were still alive though; judging by the culture screen, had they survived they would've delayed Mao's win for a considerable period, if not til retirement.

Funny how I've been playing Conquests over a decade but only recently started paying attention to culture points, micro-management, war weariness, and other good stuff. Better late than never, eh?

P.S. A few thumbnails are attached for your delectation or execration .

Jivilov said:

Thanks RS. You're absolutely right. After China finished off Maya, China became the culture leader so I had to amphibiously invade them as well. By the time I finally got a domination win in 1974 AD--thanks to my doggie-barf start on a narrow peninsula with no fresh water, having to use a "poor man's army" of archers, spears and catapults to wrest Iron from Arabia--they had a little over 100,000 points and I had a tad over 52,000. The French were still alive though; judging by the culture screen, had they survived they would've delayed Mao's win for a considerable period, if not til retirement.

Funny how I've been playing Conquests over a decade but only recently started paying attention to culture points, micro-management, war weariness, and other good stuff. Better late than never, eh?

P.S. A few thumbnails are attached for your delectation or execration .

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I count 6 armies in your central screen shot. I thought there was a maximum of 5 permitted. How did you achieve this feat?

walletta said:

I count 6 armies in your central screen shot. I thought there was a maximum of 5 permitted. How did you achieve this feat?

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No, it's one army per 4 towns. And look at the minimap -- Jivilov's glorious (purple) Portuguese empire covers about two-thirds of the world, and he's not even using ICS'd specialist farms! The increased no. of supportable Armies is yet another good reason for building (1-shield) specialist-farms -- some of the others being:

1. Taxmen can add +2 GPT to your Treasury -- or the town can support up to two 1-GPT improvements, without being a net drain on your Treasury: e.g. Harbor for food, Barracks for vet-units (slow-built or cash-rushed), or Temple/Lib (marginal value unless going for Culture win?)
2. Scientists can boost BPT, allowing you to reduce the science slider for more Lux% or Tax%
3. Every settlement, no matter how corrupt/wasteful, still allows at least 1 additional free unit under Republic -- and (lots) more under less liberal gov-types -- which can (significantly) lower military support costs

tjs282 said:

No, it's one army per 4 towns. And look at the minimap -- Jivilov's glorious (purple) Portuguese empire covers about two-thirds of the world, and he's not even using ICS'd specialist farms!

The increased no. of supportable Armies is yet another good reason for building (1-shield) specialist-farms -- the other reasons being: they can do good things for your GPT (if your farmers are supporting Taxmen) and/or BPT (if they're supporting Scientists); and they can also (significantly) lower your military spending, since every town (Pop1-6) allows 1 free unit under Republic, and (lots) more free units under less liberal gov-types.

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Ah, OK. I thought it was 5 max. Thanks for clearing that up.

@ walletta: Actually there were about a dozen all told, including four Modern Armor, the rest basic Tanky-wanks, and each army had four units (thanks to both Mililtary Academy and Pentagon). As tjs notes you can have one army for each four towns/cities/metros. A couple tank armies were left behind to deal with recalcitrants and the occasional AI stab at amphibious invasion.

Btw you mentioned an aversion to amphibious invasions. It seems that if you have Armies in your stack the AI will generally avoid it, except maybe for some ineffectual bombing. So when I attacked China's home island I simply unloaded on level ground and took out one of their core cities next turn (they didn't have Mech Infantry, which helped a lot). With a settler to establish a beachhead and a worker to build an airfield reinforcement was a breeze--although bear in mind armies, settlers, and artillery cannot be airlifted.

A previous experience with Maya didn't go so well. The assault force landed (on a mountain) OK but going after their capital was inadvisable, as it was defended by maybe 10-12 units. Even though 56 combat units were landed--including a dozen artillery--from 10 transports, both cavalry armies were lost, the 2 (or was it 3?) tank armies were reduced to yellow or red, and ultimately infantry were employed in a desperate attempt to exterminate the last die-hard defenders of Chichen Itza. They succeeded, leveling the city in righteous retribution, but at heavy cost. The transports had to return for ANOTHER load of 50-60 guys while the tank armies, the artillery, and a handful of wounded infantry and tanks waited for succour. (Had I kept the city it would've flipped almost immediately, and I couldn't predict if it would've even been possible to build an airfield with the workers I'd brought along given the surrounding sea of Mayan culture. Ditto for building a new town with a settler.)

Fortunately armies can heal in enemy territory so after the Maya started a new settlement in Chichen Itza's rubble the armies (with artillery) kept bumping off Mayan units--maybe 2-3 every turn--until reinforcements finally arrived. Only then was it possible to take out a ring city on the coast and establish breathing room for a town and airfield. Lesson learned: Better go after a ring city (or two, or three) first, THEN go after the capital. Which is how the Chinese invasion went.

@ tjs: You're right about specialist farms. Unfortunately I wasn't paying enough attention to MM so most corrupt settlements were used as worker or settler farms (I kept most Russian, Japanese, and French cities, enduring the occasional culture flip as a price of doing business in the big leagues). Next time though--a serious attempt at Demigod with my beloved, albeit plodding, Roman legionaries--your observation will be foremost in my mind. Thanks for the reminder.

Jivilov said:

@ walletta: Actually there were about a dozen all told, including four Modern Armor, the rest basic Tanky-wanks, and each army had four units (thanks to both Mililtary Academy and Pentagon). As tjs notes you can have one army for each four towns/cities/metros. A couple tank armies were left behind to deal with recalcitrants and the occasional AI stab at amphibious invasion.

Btw you mentioned an aversion to amphibious invasions. It seems that if you have Armies in your stack the AI will generally avoid it, except maybe for some ineffectual bombing. So when I attacked China's home island I simply unloaded on level ground and took out one of their core cities next turn (they didn't have Mech Infantry, which helped a lot). With a settler to establish a beachhead and a worker to build an airfield reinforcement was a breeze--although bear in mind armies, settlers, and artillery cannot be airlifted.

A previous experience with Maya didn't go so well. The assault force landed (on a mountain) OK but going after their capital was inadvisable, as it was defended by maybe 10-12 units. Even though 56 combat units were landed--including a dozen artillery--from 10 transports, both cavalry armies were lost, the 2 tank armies were reduced to yellow or red, and ultimately infantry were employed in a desperate attempt to exterminate the last die-hard defenders of Chichen Itza. They succeeded, leveling the city in righteous retribution, but at heavy cost. The transports had to return for ANOTHER load of 50-60 guys while the tank armies, the artillery, and a handful of wounded infantry and tanks waited for succour. (Had I kept the city it would've flipped almost immediately, and I couldn't predict if it would've even been possible to build an airfield with the workers I'd brought along given the surrounding sea of Mayan culture. Ditto for building a new town with a settler.)

Fortunately armies can heal in enemy territory so after the Maya started a new settlement in Chichen Itza's rubble the armies (with artillery) kept bumping off Mayan units--maybe 2-3 every turn--until reinforcements finally arrived. Only then was it possible to take out a ring city on the coast and establish breathing room for a town and airfield. Lesson learned: Better go after a ring city (or two, or three) first, THEN go after the capital. Which is how the Chinese invasion went.

snip

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pretty good description of why I don't like it. Too much fiddling about. OTOH I do like ruling the seas with the English man o' war. Now that is fun. Trouble is, it doesn't last that long and the island maps on which it works best throw annoying problems that I find easier to solve on land.