Civilizations should give forgiveness at some point

MerchantCo · Dec 1, 2013

How come warmonger penalties remain with you for the entire game?

Let's say I fought a bit too much at around 3000 AD, and now everyone hates me for it. By modern times, everyone would still hate me! Thousands of years later, diplomacy would still be terrible, just because our ancestors hundreds of generations before us had fought. What ever happened to forgiveness?

Do we still hate the Japanese for warmongering in WW2? Do we still hate Germany for WWI, and the events that followed? Do we still hate the Turks for the warmongering of their ancestors?

After a certain number of turns, forgiveness should be granted.

Js_9001 · Dec 1, 2013

I think this has to do with the whole immortal leader idea. In real life we forgive countries because it was a different leader, but in Civ it's the same leader that warmongered all those years ago.

bbbt · Dec 1, 2013

The warmonger penalty does expire. What can happen, if you don't play the diplomacy game to curry favor and create sides, is that civ's just keep denouncing you and denouncing you.

Essentially, they initially hated you because you because of the warmongering. Now they don't even remember why they hate you - they just hate you because they've always hated you and everyone else hates you

CaptainPatch · Dec 1, 2013

Just like how Influence with City States degrades down to a base level, it seems only reasonable to me that the various Diplo pluses and minuses with other civs should also wear down.

Aristos · Dec 1, 2013

CaptainPatch said:
Just like how Influence with City States degrades down to a base level, it seems only reasonable to me that the various Diplo pluses and minuses with other civs should also wear down.

They do. All of them. Different decay factors, but all of them have one.

Arachnofiend · Dec 1, 2013

A game of Civ is a lot shorter than world history. Babylon being sacked doesn't really mean much for the real world by this time, but if the same thing happens in a game of Civ Greece has a mere six capitals to take before succeeding in a domination victory. In-game leaders have a right to be concerned, and logically should be unless you do things to convince them you are no threat to them.

Socratatus · Dec 1, 2013

Js_9001 said:
I think this has to do with the whole immortal leader idea. In real life we forgive countries because it was a different leader, but in Civ it's the same leader that warmongered all those years ago.

This.

The Player is `immortal` and remembers everything. it would be decidely unfair to have the AI change Leaders and forget every 100 or so years while the Player never does. This would give the Player a huge gameplay advantage, ie breaking agreements, starting wars, etc and never suffering for it.

Unless the Player swaps with another player every 100 years or so, it has to work this way.

Væringjar · Dec 1, 2013

MerchantCo said:
Do we still hate the Japanese for warmongering in WW2? Do we still hate Germany for WWI, and the events that followed? Do we still hate the Turks for the warmongering of their ancestors?

Actually, many people still hate them.

Aristos · Dec 1, 2013

Pisik said:
Actually, many people still hate them.

At least you can understand some of the feelings, even if unjustifiable... but the ones that hate their liberators, now that is something for Herr Sigmund... yes, I'm looking at you frenchies...

otaman1 · Dec 1, 2013

Don't know what the Modern era is if the year is 3000 AD. But the AI will forgive you after about 30 turns or so, or after you both have adopted the same ideology.

Mousey_Commander · Dec 2, 2013

Because the AI is programmed to win in Civ V above all else, rather than programmed to act in convincing historical manner to create an empire building setting for the player like in previous ones. Which approach is better is for you to decide.

Magma_Dragoon · Dec 2, 2013

Pisik said:
Actually, many people still hate them.

Where do such people buy music, games, and anime and mange?
Anyway, I've always interpreted the player as the collective will of the entire kingdom, the overmind, if you will. The leader is just a construct used for interaction with other entities.

Minigrinch said:
Because the AI is programmed to win in Civ V above all else, rather than programmed to act in convincing historical manner to create an empire building setting for the player like in previous ones. Which approach is better is for you to decide.

What previous ones did the AI behave like that?

bcaiko · Dec 2, 2013

Aristos said:
They do. All of them. Different decay factors, but all of them have one.

The problem is the diplomatic penalties don't decay fast enough. Particularly in the early game. And they all roll into a chain denouncement that has too powerful an effect.

MikHolmes · Dec 2, 2013

Also consider the AI not as a roleplaying entity, but as a simulation of another human player in a multiplayer game. Diplomatic relations are flavoured to look like world leaders, but they are closer to what a human player would feel towards you due to your actions.

Say you and me were playing a multiplayer game. If you took a city, for the rest of the game, I would know that you were willing to take land with military, and it would make me watch out for you. Not only might you back stab me if I let you benefit too much from trades, but you've got the added resources from sacking or keeping that city above me. My feelings might "decay" over time, but I'm not going to forget it for a few eras.

Xiao Xiong · Dec 3, 2013

Maybe nobody "hates" Germany and Japan 70 years later. But I bet a lot of nations would get antsy if they started building up a big army again..

phillipwyllie · Dec 3, 2013

Don't denounce back and try and propose favorable propositions at the WC. Fighting against comon foes is another good way to improve relations. Depending on the civs involved it is possible to obtain a DOF from a civ whose city you once captured. When trying to coerce the world into fighting a common foe be the last civ to DOW.

bcaiko · Dec 3, 2013

MikHolmes said:
Also consider the AI not as a roleplaying entity, but as a simulation of another human player in a multiplayer game. Diplomatic relations are flavoured to look like world leaders, but they are closer to what a human player would feel towards you due to your actions.

Say you and me were playing a multiplayer game. If you took a city, for the rest of the game, I would know that you were willing to take land with military, and it would make me watch out for you. Not only might you back stab me if I let you benefit too much from trades, but you've got the added resources from sacking or keeping that city above me. My feelings might "decay" over time, but I'm not going to forget it for a few eras.

The problem there is that the AI doesn't play like a human player. A human player understands that when it settles directly on my capital, that's an extremely aggressive move and I have good reason to declare war. The AI feigns that it's the victim the rest of the game.

Until and unless a casus belli system is implemented in the game, the AI needs forgive more in the early game and not be as prone to chain denouncements that ruin the experience for most players.

Gori the Grey · Dec 3, 2013

Arachnofiend said:
A game of Civ is a lot shorter than world history.

This is so immersion-breaking for me. :lol:

Camikaze · Dec 3, 2013

The warmonger penalty is much more a representation of fear at militarism than disapproval. If you've won a war or taken cities only 20-30 turns ago, I think it's reasonable for an AI to still be fearful of your expansionary designs, even if it is a couple of hundred years later.

Aristos · Dec 3, 2013

Camikaze said:
The warmonger penalty is much more a representation of fear at militarism than disapproval. If you've won a war or taken cities only 20-30 turns ago, I think it's reasonable for an AI to still be fearful of your expansionary designs, even if it is a couple of hundred years later.

... and a mechanism to rebalance the game from being a "war is the only option, and against a crippled enemy" into something else.

Civilizations should give forgiveness at some point

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