Guild Ideas

Personally I dislike any point where I have to make a choice to get one or the other.
I find it extremely ofputing if I can not have both, regardless of how absurd high the required effort is to do so.

Other than that I like the things you posted.
But strategy games are choices!!
 
I prefer when the choice is in what order to get things, not to trade of one thing against the other.

The mastery buildings are a perfect example of a good mechanic.
 
Personally I dislike any point where I have to make a choice to get one or the other.
I find it extremely ofputing if I can not have both, regardless of how absurd high the required effort is to do so.

Other than that I like the things you posted.

Then you will dislike it. :p

There can and will (must, actually) be a tradeoff. That tradeoff is availability... One guild in a category at a time. Inactive guilds may give some small effects (which will mostly be negative IMO), but to actually make use of it it must be active. And switching to another guild deactivates the buildings of the old, and kills the units.

There is no having multiples in the same category. That simple. To do otherwise is not just imbalanced, it completely breaks the mechanic as designed. There is simply no way to allow that in a way that I like, or that is simple to program, so it won't be done.

I prefer when the choice is in what order to get things, not to trade of one thing against the other.

The mastery buildings are a perfect example of a good mechanic.

Mastery buildings are going away. And becoming part of the guilds. :lol:
 
The mastery buildings were one of my absolute favorite features... :(

But its your mod.
 
The mastery buildings were one of my absolute favorite features... :(

But its your mod.

All features of them will continue to exist... They're just becoming part of guilds. Making it one cohesive whole so Guilds actually have a purpose, rather than many fractious mechanics. ;)
 
I have no idea on how exactly the new guilds will be formed in RiFE but from what I understand it seems that they'll allow either an advantage or some specialisation in one aspect of the game, but as far as I can tell there's no downside to other aspects. I wouldn't have a problem if there was however, you don't have to pick a guild if you don't want to take a loss in a department in order to strengthen another. It makes for an interesting choice, I'm all for mechanics that discourage no-brainer choices.
However, I wouldn't necessarily call the new guilds a limitation, especially since you have the freedom to switch to another guild (although detaching yourself from a well established guild might not be an easy process).
 
I like the idea of the guilds as proposed. I definitely think folding in some of the other mechanics (like the master smith type buildings) is a good move.

I do wonder what the major difference is between a cult and a religion though - I mean you have to pick between them because you can't have a state religion and a cult. If you have a cult instead will it always be a weaker choice really? (i.e. the teams that get cults have them because it's thematic for them but it's not worth it for other teams particularly).

I accept the statement that new cults are easier to code than new religions, but in that case, why not make all religions "cults"? I assume all the cults will provide unique units, diplomatic bonuses for others of the cult and so forth the way religions do?
 
I like the idea of the guilds as proposed. I definitely think folding in some of the other mechanics (like the master smith type buildings) is a good move.

I do wonder what the major difference is between a cult and a religion though - I mean you have to pick between them because you can't have a state religion and a cult. If you have a cult instead will it always be a weaker choice really? (i.e. the teams that get cults have them because it's thematic for them but it's not worth it for other teams particularly).

Correct. Cults are those minor religions (Cult of the Emperor, and so on) which are too small to warrant a full religion.

I accept the statement that new cults are easier to code than new religions, but in that case, why not make all religions "cults"? I assume all the cults will provide unique units, diplomatic bonuses for others of the cult and so forth the way religions do?

Because it provides a clear distinction between the two mechanics. You know a Cult is not of the same quality as a Religion. ;)
 
I haven't read all the preceeding posts ('cause I'm, as usual, lazy after work).

SO : wouldn't it be fitting to Lore to have guilds represented more as groups of influence than economic powers ? After all, my average game usually doesn't see much worldwide trade, or sports an atmosphere fitting to the development of world wide trade organisations.

By 'groups of influence', I'm meaning a goup of people having found a common center of interest, which in a medieval 'going to apocalypse' world could go much further than mere commercial guilds.

random ie : 'Fire hearts' : A group of people seeking to restore Bhall to the preeminence she had.(before she fell, she was the most worshipped goddess)
 
random ie : 'Fire hearts' : A group of people seeking to restore Bhall to the preeminence she had.(before she fell, she was the most worshipped goddess)
That sounds something like that thing I am trying to make... but with a slight twist on the thing...
 
Not to derail things but how do you feel about a culture that wants to ingratiate them self with the newly awakened Bhall by transforming the world into a hell of fire?

(experimenting with lore)


Also, there should be some negative effects for units of the same guild fighting each other.
 
Because it provides a clear distinction between the two mechanics. You know a Cult is not of the same quality as a Religion. ;)

Isn't it for the most part a non-meaningful choice then? It sounds like either your cult will be obviously better for you, like the Mechanos cult for the mechanos, or else you'll always be better off going with one of the tried and true religions.

Or will the cults be going for a weaker but more specialised role? You mentioned the Cult of the Emperor would increase diplomatic relations with the Scions, - is that almost useless (but believably useful every now and again in certain games) bonus intended to make it a meaningful choice every 1/100 games, and otherwise a sub-par choice that you try to avoid compared to a real religion if possible?

I raise the issue because - for the most part I find that more options is better (more civs, more civics) providing that balance is maintained - in this case though it seems like you're intentionally going to be balancing some of the options to be worse than others. (Cult vs Religion).

While at the same time trying to make it so that (Guild vs Guild) is as balanced as possible so that the choice for which guilds you want active is important.

To be honest the way you write about the guilds currently sounds like a much more interesting interpretation of the base mechanic. The mechanic being of things you adopt which multiple teams can have. The religions in this mod with unique units, spells, heroes and civicis are done much better than base civ. (Your old coperations that I'm glad you're doing away with were done just the same as base civ and so not paritcularly interesting).

The guilds you're planning sound like they're taking yet another step into making meaningful choices and effects. I could easily see them overshadowing religions in terms of interest, mechanics and overall effect on Gameplay. So far the only thing that the religions have that your new guilds don't is diplomatic relations effects (which guilds easily could have, since civics and religions do).

What I'm saying is I think that the cults may be a lot more interesting than the religions and it might be worth (perhaps in a future patch) considering changing the religions to have more interesting and varied effects.

For example: although it doesn't make sense for the holy city to change the way the guild headquarters is planned to change - the ability for the centre of power to change in a game makes the guilds much more interesting and less static. As a mechanic for making varied and interesting games (single or multi-player) it's much better designed. A possible addition to religions would be a centre of worship (different from the holy city - the way Bethlehem and Jerusalem aren't Vatican City) - which was able to move to allow the religions to keep up. (All of this stems from my general belief that missing any/all religions in a game essentially drops you out of the religion game entirely because they're so focused on the holy city - although the mod fixes that somewhat with the unique units and civics - however all of that basically makes you get one religion and stick with it - or else one religion only because a late game religion is yet to come).

Alternatively you could try to make the differences more pronounced so that religions and guilds served very different function. As it is, I could easily see the guilds being more interesting and eclipsing if not the importance of religion, at least the interest and some of the fun of them. (Albeit only by adding a better more fun variant :p)
 
Isn't it for the most part a non-meaningful choice then? It sounds like either your cult will be obviously better for you, like the Mechanos cult for the mechanos, or else you'll always be better off going with one of the tried and true religions.

Or will the cults be going for a weaker but more specialised role? You mentioned the Cult of the Emperor would increase diplomatic relations with the Scions, - is that almost useless (but believably useful every now and again in certain games) bonus intended to make it a meaningful choice every 1/100 games, and otherwise a sub-par choice that you try to avoid compared to a real religion if possible?

I raise the issue because - for the most part I find that more options is better (more civs, more civics) providing that balance is maintained - in this case though it seems like you're intentionally going to be balancing some of the options to be worse than others. (Cult vs Religion).

While at the same time trying to make it so that (Guild vs Guild) is as balanced as possible so that the choice for which guilds you want active is important.

To be honest the way you write about the guilds currently sounds like a much more interesting interpretation of the base mechanic. The mechanic being of things you adopt which multiple teams can have. The religions in this mod with unique units, spells, heroes and civicis are done much better than base civ. (Your old coperations that I'm glad you're doing away with were done just the same as base civ and so not paritcularly interesting).

The guilds you're planning sound like they're taking yet another step into making meaningful choices and effects. I could easily see them overshadowing religions in terms of interest, mechanics and overall effect on Gameplay. So far the only thing that the religions have that your new guilds don't is diplomatic relations effects (which guilds easily could have, since civics and religions do).

What I'm saying is I think that the cults may be a lot more interesting than the religions and it might be worth (perhaps in a future patch) considering changing the religions to have more interesting and varied effects.

For example: although it doesn't make sense for the holy city to change the way the guild headquarters is planned to change - the ability for the centre of power to change in a game makes the guilds much more interesting and less static. As a mechanic for making varied and interesting games (single or multi-player) it's much better designed. A possible addition to religions would be a centre of worship (different from the holy city - the way Bethlehem and Jerusalem aren't Vatican City) - which was able to move to allow the religions to keep up. (All of this stems from my general belief that missing any/all religions in a game essentially drops you out of the religion game entirely because they're so focused on the holy city - although the mod fixes that somewhat with the unique units and civics - however all of that basically makes you get one religion and stick with it - or else one religion only because a late game religion is yet to come).

Alternatively you could try to make the differences more pronounced so that religions and guilds served very different function. As it is, I could easily see the guilds being more interesting and eclipsing if not the importance of religion, at least the interest and some of the fun of them. (Albeit only by adding a better more fun variant :p)

I honestly may not even have Cults; I'm still not entirely sure on them. Though the reasoning for that is influenced by an unannounced feature. :lol:
 
In regards to the difference between religions and cults, perhaps the difference should lie with what is available to them. Working with the Cult of the Emperor here, I'll say where I would put the differences.

Holy City: Although it would probably not work this way with any guilds, or even most cults, the holy city of the Cult of the Emperor is the city with either: The palace of the Scions, or an as yet unnamed wonder should the scions not be in the game or have been destroyed. No real bonuses for having the cult city, maybe just a culture boost.

Heroes: Cults have no specifics heroes, the civ based cults have that civs heroes, thats it.

UUs: Cults have their own religious UUs, in this case the Legate, Doomsayer, and Doomgiver, as well as Revenants (By the way, Revenants should really know how to use metal weapons) To spread the cult you have to sacrifice Legates or Doomsayers, Scions recieve it for free automatically in their cities. Non fallow civ prevented from getting reborn from combat.

UBs: The Temple of the Gift, as it is now; the Imperial Cenotaph becomes a Scion Courthouse UB, yeah I've played some Orbis recently (increase the maintnence reduction, perhaps to -60%)

Passive effects: "Doesn't seem that impressive, why should I convert from the Order or Runes to follow this Emporer and his cult?" you say? Well one is haunted lands, you have a chance of having them spring up on you should the cult be present in your cities, not a big deal till you run into the Unhealth wall (note: Enter Pelemoc, *Emperor giggles at the thought*), you also have a small chance of units produced in the affected cities coming out Undead and possibly under Scion (if they're around)/Agares control with HN.

The Civic: So you weren't to happy with having Haunted Lands throughout your empire, or having your workers and settlers waylaid by Horsemen you built? You've abandoned your Gods and joined the Cult of the Emperor Reborn? What do you get? Well aside from our spify temple and the Doomsayer line the effects of the civic are pretty nifty. First, your units, probably going to be created undead, that's OK though as they no longer get angry and try to kill you off. Second HL, well they're still spreading but you suffer no Unhealth from them, Yay! You also have a diplo bonus with the Scions who generate extra trade from folks like you who worship the Emperor in his grace, also they have a bonus building reborn but that's neither here nor there.

We hope to have you join the worship of the Emperor in his grace soon, if you need a pamphlet on the cult talk to the headless soldier your way out.
 
Passive effects: "Doesn't seem that impressive, why should I convert from the Order or Runes to follow this Emporer and his cult?" you say? Well one is haunted lands, you have a chance of having them spring up on you should the cult be present in your cities, not a big deal till you run into the Unhealth wall (note: Enter Pelemoc, *Emperor giggles at the thought*), you also have a small chance of units produced in the affected cities coming out Undead and possibly under Scion (if they're around)/Agares control with HN.

Is this supposed to be positive? If so, I don't understand how, if not ignore this post...
 
Its not supposed to be positive until you join the cult officially, till then making sure no Legates make it to your cities should be a priority. As I understand it if you have cults (maybe even a full guild) present in your sities and you don't grant them official sanction they have a habit of hurting you. I could be wrong though.
 
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