UU&UB or UU&UU elimination thread

I think it's just that turtle ship often gets loads of hate for silly reasons. I nearly don't see that UU as a cripple as people make it seem to be. I mean, their strength is monstrous. Before Ironclads they will hurt like HELL. And deals more than any other non-sieged unit attacking a coastal city (I mean, you don't get Rifleman/Gatling Guns until Industrial era if memory serves). It's also a great meat shield for cities to attack instead of your siege units.

The fact that they can't survey the ocean shouldn't be viewed as that much of a cripple when you're likely to send your scout out anyways. Or getting frigates just a tech after Astronomy.

The massive combat strength of the Turtle ship doesn't mean much when I can just park a couple of Galleasses Frigates outside of it's reach and range it to death.

Korea being eliminated first doesn't mean people hate using their UUs. It just means that in comparison to other civs, they simply don't stack up nearly as well or serve as many roles. Lots of civs have uniques that can perform well in different playstyles, and that's why they are still in the game.
 
The massive combat strength of the Turtle ship doesn't mean much when I can just park a couple of Galleasses outside of it's reach and range it to death.
Galleass can't enter deep ocean either. Not sure what this means. Unless you're saying ocean tiles inside your border. And I was mostly suggesting single player where the AI won't even think to place Galleases on their owned ocean tiles to ninja Turtle Ships. And who's to say the Koreans wouldn't also take a couple of Galleass with them?
 
America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 16 (-2)
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 8
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 23 (+1)
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 12
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 14
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 24
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 24

Celts - nothing fancy about the building, unit replacing spearman, who you never use anyways

France - two replacements, that are large step ups comparing to the originals
 
America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 16
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 8
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 23
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 12
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 12
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 24
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 25

+Spain: Conquistadors are pioneers in colonization. Their extra sight, defensive embarkation and ability to settle cites and city attacking make conquistadors very versatile and powerful. It's extremely fun to use them to conquer other civilizations. Tercios appear in the exact time when you need more soldiers. +50% versus mounted is always useful because lancers are a main treat to ordinary musketmen and AI knights are sometimes annoying. Tercios are solid units that work well with conquistadors.

-India: War Elephant doesn't make sense. I usually skip chariot archer because it has a dead upgrade route and CB is such a great unit. The building is even worse. Extra culture is always welcomed but who want to build both wall AND castle just for the 2 :c5culture: ?
 
Galleass can't enter deep ocean either. Not sure what this means. Unless you're saying ocean tiles inside your border. And I was mostly suggesting single player where the AI won't even think to place Galleases on their owned ocean tiles to ninja Turtle Ships. And who's to say the Koreans wouldn't also take a couple of Galleass with them?

You are correct. I meant Frigates, not Galleass. Don't do a lot of naval combat and still getting used to the naming of the ships.

America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 16
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 23
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 6
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 23
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 12
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 12
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 24
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 25

+China: As everyone already knows, the Paper Maker is simply an awesome UB that replaces a building you pretty much always build in every city anyway, and gives a nice boost to your economy. The Chu-Ko-Nu is an amazing defensive unit that also excels once it switches to the offense. Early logistics means more EXP, and having it carry over through upgrades means you can get other promotions quicker.

-Egypt: It was a hard choice between Babylon and Egypt, but I had to go with the latter. The War Chariot replaces an already typically overlooked unit, whereas the Bowman replaces a unit that is used much more often (unless you are like me and just wait until Composites). I like the added benefit from Burial Tomb a lot better than the Walls of Babylon, but it simply doesn't get built very often. I rarely have the need for Temples. I usually get my religion from an early wonder that also provides faith points. Extra happiness is nice, but as others have noted, it isn't worth the risk of being a gold mine for enemies. Babylon's walls at least have the opposite effect on your cities.
 
America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 14
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 16
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 23
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 6
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 23
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 13
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 12
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 24
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 25

Greece: the hoplite is a very good unit that makes early warfare much more feasible, and the campanion cavalry add onto this nicely, making your army strong and mobile, even if it is a limited time offer. I don't love either, but they're good in their own respects and not as bad as some people say.

Austria: I've continually attacked other combos rather than this one, but If no one's gonna defend these thigs I'm just gonna keep bashing them over the head. Hussar may have a lot of bonuses, but it simply doesn't stand up to the power of a horde of cossacks (or my units have adjacent allies...) and the coffe house is weaker and comes at a time when great people are less valueable.
 
America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 14
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 16
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 23
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 7
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 23
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 11
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 12
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 24
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 25

Egypt: Who loses cities to the AI? Extra happiness is always welcome and so is no maintenance. The chariot is dull, just as dull as the Greek units. Still the Burial tomb is decent so Egypt should not die before Greece.
 
It isn't about the gold loss, it's about giving the AI even more incentive to attack you, more than all your wonders and your unit allready will.
 
It isn't about the gold loss, it's about giving the AI even more incentive to attack you, more than all your wonders and your unit allready will.

Does the AI even understand it will get extra gold from the tombs? That's more advanced than I thought it to be. Nevertheless, I doubt it will bring you much trouble especially if you're going tradition with Egypt (extra defence!).
 
Greece: the hoplite is a very good unit that makes early warfare much more feasible, and the campanion cavalry add onto this nicely, making your army strong and mobile, even if it is a limited time offer. I don't love either, but they're good in their own respects and not as bad as some people say.

Man, I thought I was the only one here who liked Greece's UUs. They're not a top combination but still, the early combination is better than a lot of people give them credit for. If you can't stand tight battles then there is no better early army than Alexander's because you are getting a more mobile and more powerful horseman that can produce GG's and a hoplite that will be the strongest melee unit on the fields for the time you are using them
 
Just played my first Greece game today. It was an Emperor duel pangea and I was up against Spain. I went with an Honor start and let me just say that I was rather impressed by their UUs.

Not a lot of flair but they are definitely a great combo and make early combat a lot of fun. I didn't manage to get the achievement for defeating everyone by 350 BC, but it was a fun game.
 
Hey all, new participant here. Here’s my intro post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11995219&postcount=10602
My conditions: I feel it’s important to only give +/- points to civs I’ve actually played as, and since I’ve only had a handful of meaningful games to draw my conclusions from I realize my judgments may change as I try all the civs out. Also, until last night all of my games were played pre-G&K. I plan to play a few more games as different civs between now and the next time I post here (my first G&K game is with Ethiopia, and I’m liking what I see so far).

America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 14
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 16
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 24
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 7
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 23
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 11
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 12
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 24
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 24
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 25

China: I’m very drawn to opening-game buildings, as well as infecting the land around me with as many cities as possible (to paraphrase Napolean), so naturally I fell in love with the paper-maker. With the science and gold bonuses (complementing the science with RAs), it was my first Emperor difficulty game where I gained an early literacy advantage and just ran away from everyone else (well compared to my other games anyways, I was still plagued by the unhappiness of my rapid city-spawning ways). I also love the Chu-Ko-Nu’s versatility, in that you can either attack twice in a turn or shoot-n-scoot (or maybe shoot-n-shuffle is more appropriate since they can’t scoot as far away as a Keshik).

Rome: It’s much more difficult for me to choose the civ that I feel has the weakest UU combo, but ultimately settled on Rome because of a couple reasons. First, I don’t like to build catapults early on. Trebuchets are usually the first siege units I produce in any significant quantity. The fact that the ballistae are marginally better than catapults, and marginally worse than trebuchets doesn’t really feel “unique” to me. The legion unit falls into the same category as it's a little better than the swordsman but not as good as the longswordsman. I do like how they can build roads, freeing up my workers to continue tile improvements uninterrupted. But if they’re building roads they’re not killing barbs and Russians, which means they might be too busy fighting to really make good use of that unique action. On top of it all, they both require iron to build, and I hate extra conditions to get my UUs.
 
On top of it all, they both require iron to build, and I hate extra conditions to get my UUs.

Actually, the nice think about G&K is that Catapaults and Trebs no longer require iron to build (I assume the same goes for their unique counterparts).

It took me about 8 games until I finally noticed it. :lol:
 
The massive combat strength of the Turtle ship doesn't mean much when I can just park a couple of Galleasses Frigates outside of it's reach and range it to death.

Korea being eliminated first doesn't mean people hate using their UUs. It just means that in comparison to other civs, they simply don't stack up nearly as well or serve as many roles. Lots of civs have uniques that can perform well in different playstyles, and that's why they are still in the game.

Erm, Korea can still build frigates. Turtle ships replace caravels, and simply parking one inside a coastal city will mean that city will rarely ever get captured. Also if you start on a shared landmass, which is very common, turtle ships will destroy enemy coastal cities. As a human player, you can definitely use turtle ships a lot smarter than the AI can, and your proposed method of dispatching Turtle ships with frigates would rarely ever work against another human player (if it were me, Id let you fire away at my turtle ships, free exp points for me, and then withdraw into a city).

They are not a weak unit, delayed exploration is not a crippling disadvantage, you can actually get to frigates faster than anyone else with Korea too if you really want to.

Also I don't see what makes threads like this fair when all that happened was one or two people mass down voting Korea. OMG I can't enter ocean squares with Astronomy, its the end of the world!
 
Where's Sweden ? Looks like someone dropped it at some point.

America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 14
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 16
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 24
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 5
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 23
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 11
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 12
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 25
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 24
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 25
Sweden: Hakkapeliitta, Carolean 21


- Egypt: As much as I would like to play with Egyptian Civilization their bonuses are just so weak. I hardly ever build Chariot Archers and one with extra movement just doesn't excite. I think Burial Tomb is the weakest UB in the game.

+ Maya: The Mayan Pyramid with extra +1 Faith and +2 Science does it for me. Efficient UB, like it and extra science early in the game is hard to come by. Atlatlist a cheaper archer and available earlier than regular, so I can choose other research priorities.
 
America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 14
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 16
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 24
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 5
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 23
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 23
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 11
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 12
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 25
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 12
Rome: Ballista, Legion 24
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 25
Sweden: Hakkapeliitta, Carolean 21

+England: it has some of the greatest UUs in the game. Longbowmen are medieval artilleries and once they are on hills, they'll be invincible. SotL are great for amphibious invasions.

-Polynesia: the bonus of Maori Warrior is not enough to support an early warrior rush. Maoi improvements really suck. If you want to get a high culture from that, a lot of good coastal tiles will be occupied. I'd rather build trading posts or farms.
 
Also I don't see what makes threads like this fair when all that happened was one or two people mass down voting Korea. OMG I can't enter ocean squares with Astronomy, its the end of the world!

The thread is just meant to be an assessment of the board's opinions on UB/UU/UI combos. It's not a perfectly objective ranking of every civ's uniques. I think you are taking this a little too seriously.

As you said, a human player can use Turtle ships more effectively. But as a human player, if I see you hoarding EXP and then hiding in your cities, I'll just ignore your cities by sea or attack more from land. And it isn't like I don't get EXP from attacking, too. And yes, Korea has Frigates, but I have Caravels that can guard my Frigates from the ocean. All this concludes to Korea being better at defense, which I've already admitted.

The simple fact is without the UA, I and many others find Korea's UUs to be not compelling enough to make me want to select them as my civ. An era-specific increase in defense in the form of UUs without promotions that carry over isn't very appealing to me. Korea can defend, but I'll be back later when we are on an even playing field again. I applaud them for being unique, I just don't care for them.

America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 14
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 16
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 24
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 5
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 23
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 23
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 11
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 12
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 25
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 22
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 10
Rome: Ballista, Legion 24
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 25
Sweden: Hakkapeliitta, Carolean 21

+Netherlands: I'm a big fan of both of these uniques. I love how the Sea Beggar starts with so many extra promotions. The Polder is extremely powerful if you get a start that can make good use of it. With start bias, that is likely to happen. It adds a nice flavor to the aesthetics of your land, to boot.

-Polynesia: I have to agree with what others have said. The Maori Warrior ability is nice in that it carries over, but it could use an increase in effectiveness. And whenever I have used the Moai, I've felt that they have hindered me more than they have helped. A little extra culture isn't enough to warrant me giving up other tile improvements I desperately need in the early game. And a typical Polynesia playstyle means that your cities are going to be in places where there already isn't a lot of land available.
 
Actually, the nice think about G&K is that Catapaults and Trebs no longer require iron to build (I assume the same goes for their unique counterparts).

It took me about 8 games until I finally noticed it. :lol:

Thanks, when I get home I'll check it out!
 
America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 14
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 16
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 24
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 5
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 23
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 23
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 11
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 12
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 25
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 22
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 10
Rome: Ballista, Legion 24
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 16
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 22
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 25
Sweden: Hakkapeliitta, Carolean 21

Songhai: Mass produced, long lived, fast moving, city killers? Hell freakin yes! That, AND a temple that costs me nothing and helps my culture puppet strategy by giving me culture from a building without? I'll take it! Very good Uniques, even without your very good ability.

Siam: polar opposite. Though the elephant is stronger, it lacks the speed or city killing power of the mandekalu, making it a purely defensive unit (unless your the AI, then screw lack of speed or city attacks, we're sending them in to take Gao!) and the wat, while giving one more point of culture, doesn't have that gold discount, and comes later (the earlier the culture, the better!)
 
America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 14
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 7
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 16
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 24
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 5
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 23
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 23
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 11
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 12
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 25
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 22
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 10
Rome: Ballista, Legion 25
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 16
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 22
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 25
Sweden: Hakkapeliitta, Carolean 21

+Rome: legion and ballista work well together and I enjoy being aggressive. Additionally, legions are even damn useful during peace time.

-Babylon: bowmen will be quickly get obsoleted by CBs and bowmen have no useful promotions to carry on. The building is just worse. The wall UB is a non-factor in the game.
 
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