Controversy : Kris Swordsman

Geppenguin said:

Just as you rarely see people with swords nowadays, so krises are mainly kept as heirlooms and works of art. Traditional blacksmiths are now rare fir obvious reasons, and using the rarity of krises now to dispute their commonality then is like saying that swords were never common because only the rich or distinguished officers have them today.

The Kris remains relevant even in today's world as a symbol despite its rarity. Years ago, a storm was raised over the waving of a keris by a Malaysian politician at a rally, leading to accusations of Malay supremacy being espoused

Click to expand...

now, there's a difference of culture here. In indonesia, 80 to 90 percent of the people still live in medieval way of life, there is no reason that their krises is thrown away because of its uselessness, when some tradition is actually give a specific kris a bath once a year.
The actual situation shows that kris is rare enough from a long time ago, while the tombak (pike) is standard weapon for armies.

Syailendra said:

sorry sean, but here's the fact i always found when i've traveled far and wide in indonesia's many islands

1. I only found krises at men with royal blood or some very rich man
2. Almost all of those krises have layers of gold or silver within the blade
3. Many kerises were extremely balanced that they can stand on its sharp tip for a few seconds
4. I never met one man wields kris in my life, while normal vilagers in indonesia usually wields machete.

So...
1. Where did a majority of krises that belongs to normal men goes?
2. Just how expensive those krises at medieval era?
3. Wow, it needs a very deep skill to create one, not to mention how many workhours needs to make one, just how many skillful blacksmiths are there to supply the population?
4. What kind of cultural shock did happens that alter the habit of such many people?

I just can't see any possibility that a long time ago everybody is going anywhere with kris on their belt

fyi, ive gone to more than 10 islands, more than 20 provinces, and more than 1000 villages, i'm a road planner, my job requires me to travel and open access to those inland villages.
So please don't judge me misinformed

Click to expand...

When I say that I am referring to Javanese tradition, the culture of which my mother comes from. Not sure what your travels have to do with it, I'm not talking about the entire Indonesia in modern times

In order to be a 'complete man' you must have those five things. That does not mean everybody has it, or must have it, but it is the traditional saying we have

EDIT: By the way, I was saying this as a side point, not part of the Kris discussion. I mentioned that before I wrote it. I just forgot to specify it is Javanese tradition specifically and not across Indonesia

Princeofnigeria said:

It isn't "puzzle piece" however, it is a simple 2 checkbox system. 1. Did this military unit exist, Y/N. 2. Are they known outside their place of Origin, Y/N. It could not be much easier to get in, as your UU doesn't have to be primarily associated with the country that used it (Norweigan ski infantry), doesn't have to have fought many major battles (Mehal sefari), doesn't have to have been more skilled compared to their rivals (Minutemen), and doesn't have to have been used in the nations most well known time period (atlatlist) just the two checkboxes. If you can only get one of these checkboxes filled, then I'm sorry, but we don't have a unique. I sympathise with the design team on many issues, trying to fit entire countries into only a few sentences is damn near impossible, and I have applauded their work thus far. Here however I believe they have made a misstep.

Click to expand...

Well, there isn't much more discussion to be had then. You go by your criteria, I don't (for example, I don't really understand your checkbox system). I've said everything that needs to be said in the past few pages but you seem to only nitpick a few basic concepts (hence the 'puzzle piece' statements) so I think we should just leave it here: Agree to disagree

Syailendra said:

sorry sean, but here's the fact i always found when i've traveled far and wide in indonesia's many islands

1. I only found krises at men with royal blood or some very rich man
2. Almost all of those krises have layers of gold or silver within the blade
3. Many kerises were extremely balanced that they can stand on its sharp tip for a few seconds
4. I never met one man wields kris in my life, while normal vilagers in indonesia usually wields machete.

Click to expand...

Ummm, he was talking about 500 years ago during the Majapahit Empire, not last week. It's a swordsman replacement, not a Mechanized Infantry replacement.

So...
1. Where did a majority of krises that belongs to normal men goes?

Click to expand...

Well, I can't speak with personal knowledge, but Sean explained above that its decline in importance and its disappearance is attributable to the introduction of gunpowder - also quite a long time ago.

Important people in Rome don't wear togas today, only drunken frat kids in America do. That doesn't mean that Ancient Roman nobles didn't wear Togas. Likewise, you aren't going to discover the history of the Kris 500 years ago by walking around Indonesian villages today.

Yeah we also have a lot less horses and bayonets as some guy once said.

Scaramanga said:

Yeah we also have a lot less horses and bayonets as some guy once said.

Click to expand...

are there a lot less sceptre in european culture nowadays than 500 years ago? No...
Is queen victoria brings a bayonet at royal feast at the buckingham, or the princes? No...
Comparing kris with bayonets is not applicable, they served more as a symbol of authority, just as the royal sceptre did, thats why the bass relief at candi prambanan shows the king with it.

Do people who are arguing against this for mythical purposes realize that this is the same game that has El Dorado and the Fountain of Youth?

For anyone who still don't know why Indonesian people abandoned kris in their daily life..
From this pdf..

What is the status of the kris
today?

In Groneman’s era, 100 years ago, the kris was already in decline owing to the lack of nickel and the Dutch ban on wearing the kris in public.
In recent times, it was believed that kris-making had died out completely, but this has proved to be inaccurate as a small number of kris smiths still work around Yogyakarta and in Bali.
There is also a renewed interest in collecting krises, especially by Indonesians. In some families, the heirloom kris, pusaka, is still revered by family members and is given special offerings and a position of respect in the home.
The kris is a fascinating subject because of its high craftsmanship and the quality of its materials, its long history and the magic and mythologies surrounding it.

Click to expand...

Just blame William for that..

Louis XXIV said:

Ummm, he was talking about 500 years ago during the Majapahit Empire, not last week. It's a swordsman replacement, not a Mechanized Infantry replacement.



Well, I can't speak with personal knowledge, but Sean explained above that its decline in importance and its disappearance is attributable to the introduction of gunpowder - also quite a long time ago.

Important people in Rome don't wear togas today, only drunken frat kids in America do. That doesn't mean that Ancient Roman nobles didn't wear Togas. Likewise, you aren't going to discover the history of the Kris 500 years ago by walking around Indonesian villages today.

Click to expand...

yes, those words are true, but please see both side of this coin, how can a european historian say that there were plenty enough krises while he happens to live in a lot less kris era 120 years ago.

ImperialChaos said:

Do people who are arguing against this for mythical purposes realize that this is the same game that has El Dorado and the Fountain of Youth?

Click to expand...

well its not about wether kris have mythcal powers or not, its about wether a majapahit soldier do wields a kris or a pike.

Syailendra said:

well its not about wether kris have mythcal powers or not, its about wether a majapahit soldier do wields a kris or a pike.

Click to expand...

And the Majapahit soldier did wield a kris

seancolorado said:

And the Majapahit soldier did wield a kris

Click to expand...

Just not as a primary, not all of them, and not often the wavy ones.

Syailendra said:

yes, those words are true, but please see both side of this coin, how can a european historian say that there were plenty enough krises while he happens to live in a lot less kris era 120 years ago.

Click to expand...

Because when the European come to Indonesia.., they saw this :

... every man in Java, whether he is rich or poor, must have a kris in his house .. and no man between the ages of 12 and 80 may go out of doors without a kris in his belt. They carry them at the back, as daggers used to be in Portugal...

— Tome Pires, Suma Oriental (early 16th century)

Click to expand...

And that situation was continued until the Dutch Gov banning the kris..

Princeofnigeria said:

Just not as a primary, not all of them, and not often the wavy ones.

Click to expand...

True. Though a non-wavy kris is still a kris.

Princeofnigeria said:

Just not as a primary, not all of them, and not often the wavy ones.

Click to expand...

That's why they are deserved to become a unique unit..
Because an army with spears is too mainstream..

jk..

AessaSH said:

That's why they are deserved to become a unique unit..
Because an army with spears is too mainstream..

jk..

Click to expand...

But also, the spear is a weapon naturally born out of man across all nations and cultures

The Kris is uniquely born from the Majapahit empire and thus a good pairing with Gajah Mada

Syailendra said:

are there a lot less sceptre in european culture nowadays than 500 years ago? No...
Is queen victoria brings a bayonet at royal feast at the buckingham, or the princes? No...
Comparing kris with bayonets is not applicable, they served more as a symbol of authority, just as the royal sceptre did, thats why the bass relief at candi prambanan shows the king with it.

Click to expand...

Well, there is no conflicting information here. In fact, there's strong information that they were used in battle even if just a secondary weapon (even then, there's indication that, under some circumstances, they were a primary weapon). They were not just a symbol of royal authority. So a scepter isn't comparable.

Syailendra said:

yes, those words are true, but please see both side of this coin, how can a european historian say that there were plenty enough krises while he happens to live in a lot less kris era 120 years ago.

Click to expand...

Were there no written records? Even if not home-grown records, written records by outsiders, who were able to rely on oral traditions that are closer in history to the point we're talking about, are a possible source.

Regardless of whether someone believes that a Kris was used in battle, you would have to agree that the evidence is conflicting. I don't think it's unreasonable to take a side on conflicting information for the purposes of the game. To go back to Elephants. No one knows for certain which kind of Elephant Carthage used. The better evidence, imo, is that they used a now extinct African Forest Elephant. However, it's entirely possible (although unlikely) that they used Bush Elephants or even imported Indian Elephants.

Seancolorado has posted information suggesting their use in battle - even sometimes as a primary weapon. I don't think Firaxis is wrong for relying on that information when choosing to use it in the game. Not only did they rely on that information, I think they correctly determined that the Kris was important to the culture of Indonesia, which is why they wanted it in the game.

I don't see the problem with having mystical things in this game, it's not like they're going to be unbalanced. Not as immersion breaking or frustrating as the lack of importance in bronze and iron working.

Also keep in mind that this isn't our game, Firaxis can do whatever they like to the game and never give a reason for it, though they won't because they care about their customers.

Louis XXIV said:

Well, they not only had the better option, they used the better option. Their main option is based on their seafaring prowess and the great harbor at Carthage. It's a throwaway addition that is rarely used in any game.

Regarding the UU, Carthage loved their Elephants. Mostly because they loved Greek things and the diodichi loved their Elephants (specifically, they got the idea from Pyrrhus). The Greek Kingdoms used Indian Elephants which were bigger and stronger than the Forest Elephant, but the same idea prevails. They used Elephants significantly during the First Punic War, especially in Sicily. To say Elephants are just for Hannibal is unfair to Hannibal since he barely used them. All but one died by Lake Trasimene and he only used them again at Zama where he was defeated. The Elephant is a creature of the First Punic War, not the second.

Click to expand...

Carthage used elephants extensively, yes, but as you pointed out yourself, they were used by many differant peoples during that period. (Hellenistic-Classical era, whatever you want to call it.) I think something like Numidian Cavalry from Civ IV would be better. As far as seafaring goes, they did represent them well, with the Quin and free harbors, though I wasn't really refering to that aspect. And in my defense, I never explicitely "assigned" them to Hannibal, though I guess I did suggest so. Whoops.

ImperialChaos said:

Do people who are arguing against this for mythical purposes realize that this is the same game that has El Dorado and the Fountain of Youth?

Click to expand...

Do you realise that there are a lot of people who still dislike the inclusion of El Dorado and the Fountain of Youth? For example, I'm perfectly happy with the idea of the Kris and their 'mystical' (but not magical) abilities, but I strongly dislike the two natural wonders.