In-Depth Guide: Mayan/Arabian ICS strategy.

on the red rover stuff:

I dont know what u r trying to achive - I allways try achive fast wins and for that u ll definatly want grow all your cities much further as u r writting down here.

Cap might be building settler from like turn 40-turn 75 - but after that it should just be done and then keep growing at max rate.

Many Cities means usually lot gold - with this gold buy stuff - and use pririze food tiles - aly maritimes - grow these cities. Just because u want go wide doesnt means you should not grow cities big same time.

Lot of small cities ll never crank out as much science as few talls ones
 
I am trying to achieve "true" ICS. So I am looking for the ultimate balance in happiness such that I can plop down a new city every 4-5 turns and remain happiness neutral, i.e., stay in positive happiness so that new cities can grow to the required pop (eventually pop 5 to work 2 scientists slots in a university). I'm not going to stop settling cities until the game ends, in fact I kind of wish that I had turned off a time victory just to see how wide I can get. When I run out of empty space in a few more cities I will conquer a neighbor, raze their cities and create more space.

So far I have been able to stay in positive happiness without building coliseums, but that may change as I may need them when all of my cities get to pop 5. Currently I am happiness neutral at pop 3 (pop 5 if the city gets a pagoda). However, when I pick up the policy in Rationalism that gives +1 happiness per univ (also per observatory and public school) and the Order opener (+1 happiness per city) then I should be able to grow each city to 2 more pop, although that would mean having to get more workers to improve additional tiles for those additional citizens to work in all of these cities (most likely 2 more trading posts per city). At the rate I'm settling cities it may take me a long time to get to those last 2 policies though (it will help if I get lucky with the Oracle). Also, pagodas will eventually become too expensive so that will probably also force me into building more coliseums to compensate for the later cities.

To this point I have been fine with only 6 pop in my capital as it keeps cranking out settlers every 4 turns and that's really all it needs to do. However, I will likely build a university in it soon and therefore will grow it at least to 8 so that I can work specialists there too.

So you can see that my game is more of an exercise in ICS than an actual win strategy (although winning will be inevitable anyway).
 
Lot of small cities ll never crank out as much science as few talls ones

ORLY?

Define 'lots' and define 'few'.

I bet you 60 small cities will crank out much more science than 3 tall ones.

Cheers.
 
ORLY?

Define 'lots' and define 'few'.

I bet you 60 small cities will crank out much more science than 3 tall ones.

Cheers.

all silliness aside, he's probably being a little rational. 10-20 low pop cities vs 4 tall ones. but then again he has things like 1700 bpt. not sure how long it would take for 60 cities to get there. probably MUCH longer than 4 cities since he wins in under 220 turns in most science games, deity difficulty included.
 
Agree that you would definitely not use an ICS strategy for a fast win. In fact, OCC is a much faster science win than ICS. Of course I am using ICS in it's pure meaning ("infinite" is part of the name after all), not just meaning "wide". I am enjoying the ICS strategy just because it is different from my normal strategy, and because it has a very logical, symmetrical and mathematical quality to it.
 
all silliness aside, he's probably being a little rational. 10-20 low pop cities vs 4 tall ones. but then again he has things like 1700 bpt. not sure how long it would take for 60 cities to get there. probably MUCH longer than 4 cities since he wins in under 220 turns in most science games, deity difficulty included.

Yeah, I was being silly.

But I think 10-20 will have more than 4 Tall, won't it? Especially with +2 per trade route.

Cheers.
 
To this point I have been fine with only 6 pop in my capital as it keeps cranking out settlers every 4 turns and that's really all it needs to do. However, I will likely build a university in it soon and therefore will grow it at least to 8 so that I can work specialists there too.

I mean obviously u are FINE, but just because u r fine with what u achieve - why u think this is also FINE for a strategy and tips section?
Dont you think others might want tips here for good gameplay not a fine one?

But I think 10-20 will have more than 4 Tall, won't it? Especially with +2 per trade route.

20 cities x 2 = 40 bakers thats SO negliptable

People just forget that it all comes down to modifiers - anexing a captured size 12 city and rush buying all science buildings there (some ll be left anyway) brings about 150 bakkers right away - THATS how u boost science - not by spaming size 4 cities ... and bieing happy about 2 science from a trade route and another from 2 from a pyramid

ICS is fine in the way that 8 size 20 cities ll crank out as much (or more) science as 4 size 25 cities - but when u r going for 20 size 5 cities u r just doing it wrong

doing it wrong in terms of fast win on high difficulty.
If u like play prince lvl and spam 25 cities - JUST DO SO - but dont act like its good or optimal gameplay
 
I have played Tich's Arabian ICS strategy described in the opening post several times lately with much success on Immortal/Deity. It's a powerhouse strategy for a military domination victory. The camel archer's ability to move after firing is powerful in taking down cities. After my experience trying it a few times, here are some additions and comments I would add. I haven't tried ICS with the Mayans, so my comments are limited to Arabian only:


City size: the key concept to this strategy that the opening post doesn't emphasize enough is that you MUST keep your city populations low for it to work. The goal is to have many small cities. If your individual cities are growing fast (or growing at all), that additional population gobbles up all the excess happiness you need to found/conquer new ones. Tich mentions keeping cities small in his post, but I don't think he lets the reader know that this is the most important and essential part of the strategy.

Capital Build Order: I recommend against his suggestion to build a granary in your Capital. Where he suggests a granary, I am switching back to Settlers and usually pump out about 8 in a row before I run out of room to settle new cities. With an ICS strategy, you should never build granaries, or any building that yields a food bonus, in my opinion. You want to grow by increasing city count, not city size.

  1. scout
  2. monument
  3. worker
  4. shrine
  5. two settlers
  6. two archers
  7. settlers non-stop till you have no more room to expand

Key Purchases: Tich suggests buying workers and settlers. This is an expensive approach! I think your early money is better spent on a Shrine or two. Typically by the time you place your second city you have more than 250 gold. Since you really do have to work to get your Pantheon and your Religion, the extra faith is important, especially if your first settlement spots are not also Desert terrain like your Capital. You may even have enough gold to buy the Shrine for your third city. The next place I spend my money is upgrading my three archers to composite bowman. Lastly, I save all other gold to buy City Walls. I don't place them in advance - I wait until I am ultimately attacked.

First War: If you haven't provoked a war by turn 50, the AI players will provoke one with you. On Immortal/Deity, a war by turn 50 is a certainty. My strategy to survive this crucial first battle:

  1. You start the game with a Warrior/Swordsman. Fortify him in rough terrain, adjacent to the city being attacked. He doesn't attack. His job is to block the enemy from getting three melee units adjacent to your city and absorb blows. Typically he gets a promotion in this battle, use it to heal.
  2. You should have 3 or 4 archers when the first attack comes. Upgrade them to Bowman. Their job is to attack incoming melee units. Try to have them combine their attack on the same unit. You want to destroy the enemy melee units one by one giving them no turn to get a heal promotion.
  3. drop City Walls just as battle commences. Huge bonus. Cant win this first war without Walls if you are on Immortal/Deity. The problem is, building them is slow, and you can't be sure where the attack is going to come. That's the main reason I feel your money is better spent on Walls rather than more Settlers.
  4. Destroy enemy melee units is key. It's tempting to target their catapult, but you only want to perhaps wound their siege unit and then focus on melee units. If the enemy melee units are destroyed, they cannot take the city with ranged units only, and the AI will retreat. You will never beat all their units on higher skill levels - just take out the melee units to stop the attack.

Religion: the ICS strategy will not work without Happiness bonuses from religion. Ceremonial Burial and Asceticism are the way to go. Everything Tich describes is spot on but there are two important strategies I would add. After your religion is founded, your first purchase should be a Missionary. Some players rush to Enhance their religion instead with another Great Prophet, but I find that right after you found a religion, it is vulnerable to being overrun by another. Especially if you are right next to another religious Civ.

With ICS expansion, your cities are small, even your Capital, so religious pressure is usually low. Some of your cities were founded before you even had a Pantheon, so your new religion is going to spread slowly, even to your own cities. The best way to speed it up is to use a Missionary on two nearby City States. Dont use the missionary on your own cities - they are much more powerful on a City State with 'no religious followers'. Plus, if you choose nearby City States carefully for spreading your religion, the religious pressure overlap will help spread your religion to your own cities, and to enemy cities as well. You get the happiness bonus either way, and you can create a bulwark against the spread of other religions. One Missionary is enough to convert two City States, then switch back to one Great Prophet for your Enhancer Beliefs. After that, make nothing but Missionaries for the rest of the game. If my game runs into Industrial, which if often barely does, I might get a Great Merchant with faith, otherwise it's all Missionaries. Converting enemy cities is key to your Happiness growth.

Next, Guruship is a much better selection than Pagodas for Arabia, in my opinion. My typical city in an ICS strategy is size 5, with specialist sitting in the University, pumping out Camel Archers. For that specialist to get a +2 production bonus with Guruship is huge for a city that may only be 7-10 production otherwise.

Universities: discussing Guruship is a perfect transition to the next key concept that needs more emphasis in describing an Arabian ICS. You wouldn't think of ICS as a strategy where science matters a lot, but it does. This is my build order for every city other than my Capital:
  1. Shrine
  2. Library
  3. Monument
  4. Circus, Coliseum
  5. Bazaar (Market)
  6. University
When a city is ready to build a University, it has typically grown to size 5. You can now afford a Specialist. Put one citizen in the University. The city should also have a Production Focus. You will be amazed to see that your research will keep on par with the AI, even on Deity. You won't be the science leader with an ICS strategy, but a specialist in a University and a few stolen techs will make your science very competitive even through the Renaissance. Remember your goal is to gain a Domination Victory before the Industrial age is even in full swing around the world. Consider the University to be the last building you make in a city before it begins to pump out military units non-stop for the rest of the game.

Once you have a city at size five with a specialist in the University, your city may be stagnant at that point, or will still have some VERY slow growth. If it grows to size 7, you can put a second specialist in the University. This further boosts your research, and also helps keep the brakes on city growth. Remember, a city staying at size 5 and then stagnating is ideal, but size 7 with 2 university specialists is great.

Great Person: One thing left out of the original post was a mention of the Great Person you earn when you finish Liberty. I recommend the Great General. Usually when I finish Liberty I am close to earning a Great General through battle, but not quite. I use the Liberty GP to get a General a little early. Then when the second one comes from being earned the old fashioned way, I use one of them for that all-important Citadel. At this point in the game, you have probably finished founding cities and have conquered your first couple of cities, and you are likely pounding on an enemy Capital. When you take that first enemy Capital on Deity/Immortal, especially if it eliminates that Civ, you will then find all remaining Civs declare war on you simultaneously. The Citadel is key to surviving this phase.

You don't have to have a second GG to build a Citadel, you could build it with only one. But losing the GG battle bonus hurts too much for this. That's why I feel the Liberty GP is best spend on a GG so you have two. Plus, there are no real attractive alternatives. You might think a Great Engineer is the way to go, but there are usually no key Wonders to build at that point. He'd have to sit around and wait a long time for Notre Dame, perhaps. A Great Merchant might be a good alternative for the gold from a Mission to a City State, but I feel the second GG used for a Citadel is critical.

Conquered Cities: Tich recommends Puppet or Raze for his ICS strategy, I say Annex them. Why? A puppet city will have a Gold Focus and will continue to grow larger, gobbling up global happiness through population. With ICS, you are trying to devote all your available happiness to population added by conquest, not growth. I hate having a dozen cities at size 5, and then a puppet growing out of control to size 10, making expensive buildings to maintain that you don't want or need. Plus, you often need to buy city walls ASAP on a conquered city, and you can't do that with a puppet.

The happiness difference between razing and refounding your own city in the same spot is not that much versus a puppet with a Courthouse. Not to mention, razing crushes your happiness, and damages your diplomacy with other Civs. The annexed city with a courthouse is expensive yes, but at that point you should be rolling in gold anyway and you can afford it. When you were founding your first cities, you were the poorest player in the world, by the time you eliminate your first Civ, you are rich. In short, maybe you puppet the first conquered city, but only temporarily if at all, and then annex it and all conquered cities after that.

Lastly, another benefit of annexation is selling off all the buildings in a conquered city you don't want. A good first choice is the Aqueduct they often have. You are anti-growth, and you want low maintenance costs. Buildings you should sell off:
  • aqueducts (stop growth)
  • granaries lighthouses (stop growth)
  • theaters (the city just lost half its population when conquered, theatres often add no happiness to a city under size 9 that already has a coliseum/circus and cost a lot)
  • amphiteather (expensive and you dont really need culture)

Wonders: I never build them in an ICS game. You never have a good time to do it, they are too expensive, and just not worth it. The only city capable is usually your capital, and the last thing you want to do is interrupt that early flow of settler construction. By the time you are done settling all available areas, your first camel archers are amassing, and it's time to start conquering anyway. At your first real opportunity to build a Wonder, you are already in the 'end game' phase of an ICS warmonger boom. I suggest ignoring Wonders altogether and just get as fast as you can to massing those camel archers.

Map Size: In my experience, which is limited to Immortal/Deity levels only, ICS only works on games with 6 Civs or less. If you get up to 8 Civs or more, it becomes very difficult to capture 7 enemy Capitals before someone builds a spaceship. The strategies are the same, but there just ends up being too much ground to cover in the short amount of time you have. Remember on Deity, the AIs will be entering the Industrial age about 500 years early. Plus, there will be at least two points in the game where all the AI players will declare war on you simultaneously. When you get up to 8 Civs, you can survive these mega-battles, but they take so much time, you wont get your Domination victory before you start seeing Apollo Missions being built.

I played one such game and was attacking the last two enemy Capitals while they were actually building Stasis Chambers. It was soooo close. I'm sure it's do-able, but it would take more than skill, and you'd have to some some extremely good luck on geography and luxuries for early game expansion.



good luck to those who enjoy Domination victories, with the new Religion twist, I'm convinced Arabian ICS is one of the strongest ways to go on higher skill levels.
 
I mean obviously u are FINE, but just because u r fine with what u achieve - why u think this is also FINE for a strategy and tips section?
Dont you think others might want tips here for good gameplay not a fine one?

That's pretty harsh, but then again you have never been known for your people skills. I happen to think that my gameplay is decent and that I contribute positively to this strategy section. I also believe that there is likely to be more than one way to successfully pull off an ICS strategy, not just your way. That is why I am providing input based on experience from my current game.
 
@Big Daddy

That's an excellent write-up. I would however like to add that for an ICS science victory it may be necessary to build a granary (or watermill) in certain cities if you want to limit your cities to 5 pop but still work 2 science specialists in your university.

A 5 pop city requires 10 food to feed the citizens and not starve. Since the city tile provides 2 food, that means you need 8 more food divided between 3 tiles (as 2 citizens are in specialist slots). This assumes no additional food from other sources (e.g., religious beliefs or maritime CS allies) of course. Ideally you would get this 8 food from one farmed (4 food) river grassland tile and 2 trading posted (2 food each) river grassland tiles (for optimal gold and science, since you no longer need production from the city). Of course not all cities will have these tiles available. For example, in a case where the surrounding tiles are all plains and your city is on a river, you could still work one river plains farm (3 food), one river plains trading post (1 food) and one additional 2 food tile (such as sheep, horses, etc.) if you also build a granary or watermill for 2 additional food in your city (4 food total).

In addition, if your city has a granary resource available, like deer, then you would get 2 food from the granary in the city (4 total), 3 food from the deer tile and only need 3 additional food between the remaining 2 tiles. This can be very useful in a heavy tundra area. In fact, it wouldn't be possible to work 2 specialists in your university with a 5 pop city in certain city sites without a granary just because there would be no way to obtain 8 food over 3 tiles (e.g., in a site with mostly desert tiles and no fresh water).
 
you can get some other sources from things like Feed the World where you get +1 food from shrines (maya's pyramids) and temples.
 
RedRover: when the first universities start to go up, the cities I have building them are usually size five. There is usually one 'food only' citizen that can easily be placed in the University, but the second one usually means having to give up working a tile that has a hammer or two. And I don't want to cut production.

My favorite tile is a farmed hill on a river. So I usually put only one specialist in the University and then set the city to Production Focus. If the city still has some growth, and many of them do have slow growth, at size seven I put two specialists in the University. At that point I can usually get perfect stagnation for a river city and max hammers.

It seems to me that five is the max size you want for a typical city, seven if its on a river. In either case, it's a slow grow. Most of my cities sit at size three for ages. My Capital spends most of the game at size five.
 
you can get some other sources from things like Feed the World where you get +1 food from shrines (maya's pyramids) and temples.

True, but then you probably couldn't expand quite as fast as I am expanding and still stay in positive happiness since the +happiness beliefs are needed for that.

My main point is that the granary can be a useful building in certain situations, such as in cases where the city is settled around really low food tiles (tundra/desert/non-river plains). It can turn a really bad city into something more productive.
 
True, but then you probably couldn't expand quite as fast as I am expanding and still stay in positive happiness since the +happiness beliefs are needed for that.

My main point is that the granary can be a useful building in certain situations, such as in cases where the city is settled around really low food tiles (tundra/desert/non-river plains). It can turn a really bad city into something more productive.

well, for me its expand a little less but get my 5 pop faster or expand faster but get my 5 pop slower. there's lots of way to get food and happiness so its just a response to the terrain and religion situation. its a delicate balance for sure.
 
Remember your goal is to gain a Domination Victory before the Industrial age is even in full swing around the world. Consider the University to be the last building you make in a city before it begins to pump out military units non-stop for the rest of the game.

I surely would like to know what I'm doing wrong to be so slow. Around T225 most AI are in the industrial age over even modern and I usually have only captured 1 AI capital.
In the game I've attached (all DLC required), I've bypassed Egypt and Babylon figuring to take them out with bombers, but Iroquois are already in the modern age. I think rather than taking Order I should have taken Humanism and then opened Autocracy next, but according to Big Daddy the game should be nearly over by then. I did build two wonders: Petra and Machu Picchu (with GE from Liberty). Perhaps, Petra slowed down my early settler production.
 

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At the risk of having tommynt on my case again I thought I would show the results of my little experiment with Mayan ICS. Remember that the purpose of this experiment was to see how extensively I could ICS, not how quickly I could win the game. So instead of just going for AI capitals, I have only cleared out AI cities as needed to keep expanding. Below is a screenshot on turn 300, where I currently have 54 cities and am still maintaining excess happiness and settling new cities every 4 turns or so.

Spoiler :


To make room to the west I had to wipe out Greece (annexed Athens for another good settler producer), Harald (I was nice and left him 2 cities) and Askia (currently in the process of cleaning him up). During my conquests I razed almost all cities to make space for my own, unless they fit the grid, had worthwhile buildings and weren't too large. I have actually been running at around 15-20 excess happiness, but it's a bit lower now as I am still burning down a couple of Askia's larger cities.

As you can see the majority of my cities are held at 5 pop, although I grew a few of the decent production cities to 10 pop or so, and a few of the good science cities (i.e., observatory, jungle tiles, etc.) to 6 pop.

Once they reach 5 pop, all cities will have: pyramid, monument, library, university, market (built in that order since mid game - in the early game I built the market 3rd). Ideally, 2 citizens are working the university specialist slots and 3 are working a 4f tile and two 2f trading posts (on jungle/river if possible). The 6 pop "science" cities are working an additional tp. Some cities have a few other buildings such as stoneworks, coliseum, stables, bank, circus. My 10 pop production cities generally have watermill (if possible), windmill (if possible), workshop, factory, hydro plant (if possible), etc. and barracks/armory.

Also, to summarize from earlier posts:

Religion: Messenger of the Gods, Ceremonial Burial, Asceticism, Pagodas, Religious Texts

SPs: Liberty (full tree), Commerce opener, Rationalism (left side to Free Thought plus Humanism), Order (middle down to Communism)

All-in-all kind of silly, but fun if you don't mind the ridiculous micro-management.

Edit: Also, wonders built: The Pyramids, Machu Picchu (rushed in a mountain city with Mayan Calendar GE), Forbidden Palace (rushed with Liberty finisher GE), Oracle (T170 or so).
 
BTW I have been really happy with pagodas in my game. Even on turn 300 and almost through the tech tree, I am still getting a new pagoda every 8 turns or so. They have really helped to buffer the additional unhappiness I am getting from conquering/razing AI cities. And there really isn't anything else I need to use faith for at this stage. My religion is self-perpetuating, with religious pressure pushing 180 on the fringe and 260-ish in the center of my empire.
 
Pretty insane! :goodjob:
 
what difficulty is that? that is insane and nicely ordered on the minimap! i like the 1970 beakers.

i finished an emperor game last night. 218 turns vic with about 15 cities. i quit spamming cities so it really wasnt ics but it was fun. and my 3rd baktun GP was a GE to rush Pisa because a spy told me Ramses was building it. He still got it, haha. i about blew a fuse. But when i conquered him last, on the turn I took his city he completed PT. so that was nice of him, haha. his wonder cap sent my happiness thru the roof too, from like 11 to 48. but auto-annex gave me some really early problems. i took atilla and persia very early and it sent me into -10+ a couple times.

atlatlists make that game fun for me. i love not having to immediately tech archery.
 
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