Yugoslav Partisans

I have started gathering resources for this scenario; a map, graphics, online resources etc... and I'm keen to really get the concept down before launching into anything. This will be a big undertaking and I don't want to expend lots of energy on a flawed idea.

Here are some of my initial concepts. I want to keep them here so that I may refer back to them as I work through this project:

- As I said in the other thread, I would like to keep a tight control on unit numbers to keep a the game flowing at a manageable pace.

- I would like to add some missions and challenges throughout the scenario whilst still allowing the player freedom to decide on their own strategy.

- I'm pondering the start and end dates of the scenario. The start will most likely be after the German occupation around the time of the first Partisan raids. I'm wondering if the most enjoyable part of the campaign would be the first few years when the Partisans are fighting for their lives whilst a mopping up operation with an army of 800,000 men might get a bit stale. I could leave the option open for people who like to conquer the whole map, but have the scenario officially end perhaps around 1944 with clearly defined objectives.

- I'm wondering how rigidly to keep events historical or would it be fun to have them a little more random to allow more unpredictability when replaying.

Any ideas you guys have on features that I could add to make this kind of scenario more exciting would be much appreciated.

I think the labels function of ToTPP will really be a great help with the larger map and I'm really looking forwards to placing cities and marking it up!

Well, a few historical what-if's should be encouraged. Like, for instance, if the Yugoslav partisans are doing better than historically in the south, why wouldn't Tito push the Macedonian irredentist policy he'd preached to get the support of that ethnic group in his ranks by invading and attempting to annex northern Greece, even including Thessaloniki, if the Allies, or even the Greek partisans, aren't yet poised to liberate to the area? That comes to mind off the top of my head.

During the war in Yugoslavia there were seven major Axis anti-Partisan sweeps. What I'm considering is, instead of sticking rigidly to set dates and locations, these sweeps would be triggered in reaction to certain actions taken by the player. For example, if a certain number of cities in eastern Bosnia are captured a major Axis sweep will be triggered. Whatever strategy the player undertakes will provoke a backlash and this will avoid players with a good historical knowledge from simply slipping out of the area of the sweep before the net is cast.

For the mission element I could use flags to trigger dire events in the Axis' favour if the Partisans don't achieve set goals in a set time. I'm hoping Lua script events can make these kind of events more reliable. Hopefully I can add some new ideas using them.

I hope to see a Westland Lysander in this, and Robert Maxwell!

I can see the Lysander but I don't get the Robert Maxwell reference Ciaran What am I missing?

He was a Czechoslovakian-born secret agent in WW2, I recall and was involved in Yugoslav operations...Even winning the MM.

Just a refernce I couldn't resist!

The Mirror / Member of parliament Robert Maxwell who fell off his yatch. I know he was a captain in the British Army and fought in the Normandy Campaign but I didn't realise he was also a spy. I'll have a look into that.

LOL! Fell off his yaucth? Just imagine the outrage of fans if they ended the James Bond franchise by having him retire, be elected to the Commons, and then fall off his yaucth? The ignominious, anti-climactic end!

He was naked when they found him too!

It was a very dubious situation...He made a lot of enemies, and some think he was eliminated.

Been working on city placement over the past week which is not as simple as it might seem. The division of Yugoslavian territory between the Axis and its puppet states is far from straight forwards. Its good to take some time to ponder the scenario whilst working things out as I'm learning a lot of the history and also the geography. Google maps is an invaluable tool, especially for getting the terrain right in this very difficult country.

Yes, I've actually seen the WW2 maps of how Yugoslavia was divided, and it indeed seems arbitrary and bizarre to say the least. I have no idea how or why they chose those borders. Even given the fact those making the decisions (Italian and German generals, in the end) had no native, local knowledge of the area themselves, you'd still expect some rationality in the arbitrary lines drawn of some sort...

Patine said:

Yes, I've actually seen the WW2 maps of how Yugoslavia was divided, and it indeed seems arbitrary and bizarre to say the least. I have no idea how or why they chose those borders. Even given the fact those making the decisions (Italian and German generals, in the end) had no native, local knowledge of the area themselves, you'd still expect some rationality in the arbitrary lines drawn of some sort...

Click to expand...

there is nothing arbitrary about the borders of various puppet states they established. It was all divide & conquer, if you please territorial ambitions of some nations they will faithfully serve you (until you decide to turn on them). If you mean the spheres of influence (eg german & italian in croatia) they were hastily determined 50%-50%. Keep in mind that Hitler didn't plan to invade balkans only after he was finished with Soviets, the future plans for the Balkans were still in the making (as was evident from various Hitler's tea time ramblings).

anyway McMonkey - it would be better off if you would have limited the scenario to specific parts - e.g. present day Bosnia & Croatia where a lot of the action was taking place. Partisan insurrections in other parts of YU were specific and happened with varying intensity due to many factors.

A lot of the action will be centred around Bosnia but I also wanted to show the bigger picture too. There will be sporadic small scale raids around Albania, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Slovenia and Croatia but the bulk of the Partisan units will be "won" (spawned via events) in Bosnia & Herzegovina as will the Axis Anti Partisan sweeps. My idea is to set various missions which have to be completed within a set time limit. If these missions are completed (a certain city captured or unit destroyed) then the Partisans will receive units as a reward to swell their ranks. There will be some limited unit building in liberated areas but the bulk of the Partisan army will be created via these missions. I will also include some event generated units from capturing enemy equipment (EG Axis trucks destroyed = new Partisan unit) and from Allied aid (randomly placed air-drops which will create units when destroyed). Getting the mechanics of all this right will take time but I want this scenario to be a little different than the usual territorial grab, at least in the first few years.

I had not realised what an important ally Croatia was to the Axis. I was aware of the Ustashi and SS Handshar Division but I have been reading up on the other elements of the Croatian military and it's a fascinating tale. The amount of territory handed to Croatia goes to show how important they were in the Axis plans to pacify the region. The Croatians were even given the 'honour' of being the only non-German unit chosen to fight in Stalingrad itself (the Italians, Romanians & Hungarians were employed holding the Don River line).

Serbia did contribute a fairly sizeable Gendarmerie type force which participated in some of the Anti Partisan sweeps but the nation was subjugated and divided. At various points the Royalist Chetniks fought the Germans and the Partisans and Serbs made up the core of the Partisan forces so in many ways this was a Serb civil war within a Yugoslav civil war within a World War.

I started playing through the Open General Yugoslav campaign for inspiration. I loved it the first time round and this time it's even more enjoyable as I'm generating new ideas with each scenario. The text intros are excellent and I'm copying them for reference. I would recommend this outstanding scenario highly. For me it's the best Open General campaign by a country mile. It's bloody tough but the scenarios are so ingenious and unusual whilst working perfectly. It's a real inspiration for this ToT scenario!

Does this mean Croatia will be a separate (but Axis allied) AI player on it's own, separate (as a civ, at least) from the Germans, Italians, Partisans, and whomever else maybe included?

That is the idea. I'll have to see how this works when there's German and Croatian units moving around in Croatian territory. The large map should help, especially if the German units have the alpine flag.

The current nations will be: Partisans, Germans (inc Serbia), Italians, Croatians, Hungarians, Bulgarians & Allies (Russia and USA/Britain).

Still in the process of placing cities on the map which is a lot of fun (I'm a bit of a geography nerd). I'm making a lot of use of Google Maps which has an excellent terrain overlay that gives a good view on elevations. Most of Bosnia, Croatia, Montenrgro and parts of Serbia and Macedonia consists of rivers surrounded by tall hills and mountains on either side. Only on the plains of central Serbia, eastern Croatia and parts of central Macedonia does the terrain really flatten out. Google Maps also has the neat feature that when you click on a place name a side-bar appears with pictures of the town which give a great feel for the look.

I'm pondering city sizes. For example Foca has a population of about 12,000 whilst Belgrade is 1.1 million. If 5,000 citizens represent one person on the city screen then Belgrade would be a size 220 city! I guess I'm going to have to base city size only partially on actual population and also factor in the importance of the city, both economically and strategically and work out some kind of formula to represent this.

Some sort of logarithmic scale (eg. the Richter Scale) is probably most useful for civ city sizes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithm Personally, I don't use size 1 cities, but start at 2 or preferably 3.

Most size one cities won't stay that size for long unless restricted by aqueducts so I agree with you there. ToTPP does have the advantage of eliminating the destruction of size on cities under attack or when captured so they are now viable. I will check out the logarithm, thanks!

I was working on the map overnight at work and a colleague came and had a look. He was in the Royal Welch Fusiliers (The White Dragon) in 1995 as an 18 year old rifleman in UN blue helmet and was based at Goražde during the siege by the Serbs. He had some awesome stories to tell and also told me about a book: White Dragon: The Royal Welch Fusiliers in Bosnia by David Langley which I'll be ordering off E-Bay. He's one year older than me and I was thinking about what I was up to in 1995 as a 17 year old. Certainly not being mortared by bloodthirsty Serbs!