From Emperor to Demigod

In my third attempt (same start position) I made a much better job of avoiding waste. Well into the Middle Ages I was ranked second in land area, pop. income etc. I was in touching distance on the tech tree but a very long way behind in culture. I still have not cracked the iron problem though and it turns out there is no saltpeter either so it's only a matter of time before someone shows up with 40 cavalry and bumps me off. I will give it one more go and then it's off to a continental map with more Civs. I am learning.
Looks like you are already making the right progress. :goodjob: Post your start save, so we can check, whether it is winnable or whether you are trying the impossible... :D

Does anyone know how to take screen shots in Windows? I am a Mac user but I am playing in Windows and don't know the OS.

On my keyboard there is simply a key that says "Prt Sc". Although a Mac keyboard will probably be different...
 
What do I need culture pops for? Or cathedrals? 6 luxes is usually not a problem, on Demigod the AI is fast to connect all their resources, and they also build harbors (contrary to the lower levels...)
If you can't get 6 luxuries, build horsemen instead of temples and then go capture those resources. That solves your happiness problem much more efficient than temples and cathedrals... :D

Research still works ok up to Deity. Of course you will be behind during the ancient age and most of the medieval age, but by the end of the medieval age you should have caught up and be the tech leader, even on Deity. I prefer doing my own research, benefiting from reduced tech costs (get many contacts!) by researching tech known to everyone, or if I see a chance to get a monopoly tech before the AI does (see alexman's study on AI tech preferences - or was it Bamspeedy?!), I go for it and try to trade tech for tech instead of gpt for tech. That only makes you more backward. Also, once the AIs start warring with each other, there will sooner or later be a beaten down backward AI that will trade tech for tech with you. (Start fomenting wars on the other continent early, while they still can't get at you...;))

On these levels you simply have to get used to "playing from behind" for quite a while. Also, lack of horses/iron can be overcome by a poor-man's army of Longbows, Trebuchets and Spears. Quantity instead of quality... :D That can be quite effective.

Poor mans army. Like it! :D. Turns out I have saltpetre near at hand but have to cut my way through to the heart of the English empire to get iron. Still, as the saps were happy to sell it to me for forty turns I was able to grab it (plus extra Saltpetre to sell) but by then Carthage had become a super power by feeding on India and England so I chucked game four (or five) when a monster army of cavalry overwhelmed the outer empire and sealed its eventual doom. Nonetheless, I am heartened by my progress and will essay another round or three of this absorbing mini-game.
 
Looks like you are already making the right progress. :goodjob: Post your start save, so we can check, whether it is winnable or whether you are trying the impossible... :D
I need an idiots guide on how to do this.



On my keyboard there is simply a key that says "Prt Sc". Although a Mac keyboard will probably be different...
Mac keyboards are indeed superior different. I've googled it but:

A I don't know where the system stores screen shots but
B if I did I'd post a few shots :D
 
On Windows it stores them in the clipboard. So I have to open my favorite image editor (like Paint) and then paste (Ctrl-V) the contents of the clipboard into an empty image, and then save it.
 
On Windows it stores them in the clipboard. So I have to open my favorite image editor (like Paint) and then paste (Ctrl-V) the contents of the clipboard into an empty image, and then save it.

OK I have a couple of people here who can translate that from the original Greek. I'll see what I can put up.

Progress: starting the game is now a breeze. I can easily get more than a good foothold. As I am basically starting and re-starting and playing rather too fast, crass blunders occur but with each iteration I learn something new. I can certainly defend myself from aggression.
 
What do I need culture pops for? Or cathedrals? 6 luxes is usually not a problem, on Demigod the AI is fast to connect all their resources, and they also build harbors (contrary to the lower levels...)
If you can't get 6 luxuries, build horsemen instead of temples and then go capture those resources. That solves your happiness problem much more efficient than temples and cathedrals... :D

Research still works ok up to Deity. Of course you will be behind during the ancient age and most of the medieval age, but by the end of the medieval age you should have caught up and be the tech leader, even on Deity. I prefer doing my own research, benefiting from reduced tech costs (get many contacts!) by researching tech known to everyone, or if I see a chance to get a monopoly tech before the AI does (see alexman's study on AI tech preferences - or was it Bamspeedy?!), I go for it and try to trade tech for tech instead of gpt for tech. That only makes you more backward. Also, once the AIs start warring with each other, there will sooner or later be a beaten down backward AI that will trade tech for tech with you. (Start fomenting wars on the other continent early, while they still can't get at you...;))

On these levels you simply have to get used to "playing from behind" for quite a while. Also, lack of horses/iron can be overcome by a poor-man's army of Longbows, Trebuchets and Spears. Quantity instead of quality... :D That can be quite effective.

Much food for thought. Thanks.

Btw both alexman and Bamspeedy had something to say about AI tech preferences. Axelman listed the values AIs place on benefits from various techs, which (obviously) influences their research choices. Bamspeedy mentioned "dead-end" techs like literature and chivalry that AIs tend to avoid. Thanks for the tip.
 
I got lost in empire management though and expensively lost this city to Carthage, as well as another useful one so game three (or four?) was abandoned. Pity because I got a GSL and had rushed the pyramids (mistake, as it triggered an early UU) but I am now getting totally absorbed in this micro management thing.

There's some stupid things in Civ 3, counting food and shields is one of them. It's the type of boring, simple task that the computer really should do for you. In Civ 2 any overflow shields (and food?) carried on to the next build.

Don't get too caught up in the details, it takes away your concentration from the big picture and the game is about having fun. Develop a few extra max food and max shield tiles ahead and check all city names for a "1" (build or growth) before you hit end of turn. Use the food box as a buffer for shields, sometimes having surplus food and sometimes having a shortage.

It works for me anyway.

Another stupid thing is that you don't get a message when a civ gets a new tech or luxury, or can't see how much gpt they can offer. You have to contact them every turn...
 
Wow. This is just an incredibly interesting read. I'm the type of player that is playing around with the GOTMs and trying to make the jump from monarch to emperor. This advanced strategy makes so much sense, and I can't wait to implement it to my games.

Thanks for the interesting discussion everyone, and hope to be joining you guys eventually in the upper ranks!
 
There's some stupid things in Civ 3, counting food and shields is one of them. It's the type of boring, simple task that the computer really should do for you. In Civ 2 any overflow shields (and food?) carried on to the next build.

Don't get too caught up in the details, it takes away your concentration from the big picture and the game is about having fun. Develop a few extra max food and max shield tiles ahead and check all city names for a "1" (build or growth) before you hit end of turn. Use the food box as a buffer for shields, sometimes having surplus food and sometimes having a shortage.

It works for me anyway.

Another stupid thing is that you don't get a message when a civ gets a new tech or luxury, or can't see how much gpt they can offer. You have to contact them every turn...

Ahman - do you use CivAssistII? It deals with a lot of that stuff. You are certainly right about getting lost in the detail.

Can someone please tell he how to post a save? Idiots language please. I am not Windows competent.

I have reached the early Middle Ages in reasonable shape. By a masterpiece of diplomacy I isolated England by exchanging spice for ivory with Carthage, using the spice I had stolen from Carthage by planting a city on their border and culturing it away from them (it's good the AI does not seem to bear a grudge :D). An added bonus came when it turned out I could now build the Statue of Zeus faster than Carthage, who were also building it when they foolishly traded their ivory. Now, with an army of spears, horsemen, jaguar warriors and mighty ancient cavalry I have separated England from three cities, including one containing Leonardos workshop and another with an iron source. England is grovelling to make peace but is only willing to give me Monotheism to leave off. My army being still in good order and having 15 turns of Golden Age to run, I think it's now or never and intend to reduce England to impotence, hopefully taking all her techs in return for leaving a rump stare to struggle on into a bleak future. Carthage is the long term problem. I shall have to figure that one out later.

The workshop town will probably flip shortly, my culture level being very low, so I plan to upgrade what I can cheaply and then abandon it.
 
There's some stupid things in Civ 3, counting food and shields is one of them. It's the type of boring, simple task that the computer really should do for you. In Civ 2 any overflow shields (and food?) carried on to the next build.

Don't get too caught up in the details, it takes away your concentration from the big picture and the game is about having fun. Develop a few extra max food and max shield tiles ahead and check all city names for a "1" (build or growth) before you hit end of turn. Use the food box as a buffer for shields, sometimes having surplus food and sometimes having a shortage.

It works for me anyway.

Another stupid thing is that you don't get a message when a civ gets a new tech or luxury, or can't see how much gpt they can offer. You have to contact them every turn...

Do you use CivAssistII? I have just started doing so ANC find it pretty helpful.

Can someone please explain at idiot level how to post a save? I have reached an interesting situation.

EDIT - I see the longer version of this post got through somehow. Lol
 
The start position is quite good. In the first ring you have 3 cows, 2 fish, horses and dyes. That should be enough to play for a win.

However, it looks like you need to improve your city positioning:
- none of the two fish is currently used by a city! These are among your most powerful tiles, +4fpt!
- Cities are too far apart. You have 6 towns that qualify as first-ring. Two at distance 4, two at distance 5, one at 6 and one at 7. On a tight map like this, I would recommend distance 3-4 and then a second ring at distance 7-8.
- Most towns are still size 6, even though they have access to fresh water, so don't even need an aqueduct?!? In 350AD, they should all be size 12 by now! Why didn't you let them grow? Your empire could be twice as strong as it currently is.

Also, you need to put more emphasis on exploration: more than two thirds of the map are still black. It's always good to know the map, where which resources are and how powerful your opponents are.

10 workers is clearly not sufficient, even as an industrious nation. 20 is the minimum in a game like this at this point.

PS: here is a suggestion on how I would organize the first ring. Note the town by the southern fish: as the Mayas are agricultural, it is ok to put it on the forest (distance 4) in order to gain more coastal tiles. However, the same start position with a non-agri civ I would definitely play in such a way that I would plant that town on the desert, for two reasons:
- For an agri civ, a desert is like a plain, but for a non-agri civ you want to get rid of a bad tile like this by settling upon it...
- As an agri civ, Chichen Itza has +5fpt from the two plains cows. So no need to share these cows with any neighboring town. But when playing a non-agri civ, these cows would give only +4fpt, which means that with a granary, 2 food would be wasted every three turns. (10 food needed for growth, but 3 x 4 = 12). By founding the next neighbor at distance three, the excess food can be given to that neighbor. Together with the fish, it can grow quite quickly.
 
The start position is quite good. In the first ring you have 3 cows, 2 fish, horses and dyes. That should be enough to play for a win.

However, it looks like you need to improve your city positioning:
- none of the two fish is currently used by a city! These are among your most powerful tiles, +4fpt!
- Cities are too far apart. You have 6 towns that qualify as first-ring. Two at distance 4, two at distance 5, one at 6 and one at 7. On a tight map like this, I would recommend distance 3-4 and then a second ring at distance 7-8.
- Most towns are still size 6, even though they have access to fresh water, so don't even need an aqueduct?!? In 350AD, they should all be size 12 by now! Why didn't you let them grow? Your empire could be twice as strong as it currently is.

Also, you need to put more emphasis on exploration: more than two thirds of the map are still black. It's always good to know the map, where which resources are and how powerful your opponents are.

10 workers is clearly not sufficient, even as an industrious nation. 20 is the minimum in a game like this at this point.

LOL - and I thought I was doing well! The city spacing and size are the two key points. I am averse to moving the happy slider but I guess that's something I should worry less about and just let these cities accumulate mass. And exploration. Once I meet the other three Civs my single warrior goes home to do MP duty. I guess that's not recommended ...
 
I am averse to moving the happy slider but I guess that's something I should worry less about and just let these cities accumulate mass.

Think of it like this: the extra citizens provide extra commerce. The extra commerce is then eaten up again by the luxury slider. So you don't loose anything by raising the lux slider. It's more or less plus/minus zero. (Though often it's even a slight increase in commerce. The lux slider doesn't eat all of it.)
But the important point is: 12 citizens produce twice the amount of shields as 6 citizens do! Having a city produce things at 15spt is quite different from having it produce at 7-8spt. And this extra "production power" you need, in order to out-produce the AI. And once you out-produce the AI, you can capture further lux resources (or the Hanging Gardens in London...), which provide more happiness, so that you can lower the lux slider again, and then your economy really starts buzzing... :D
 
PS: here is a suggestion on how I would organize the first ring. Note the town by the southern fish: as the Mayas are agricultural, it is ok to put it on the forest (distance 4) in order to gain more coastal tiles. However, the same start position with a non-agri civ I would definitely play in such a way that I would plant that town on the desert, for two reasons:
- For an agri civ, a desert is like a plain, but for a non-agri civ you want to get rid of a bad tile like this by settling upon it...
- As an agri civ, Chichen Itza has +5fpt from the two plains cows. So no need to share these cows with any neighboring town. But when playing a non-agri civ, these cows would give only +4fpt, which means that with a granary, 2 food would be wasted every three turns. (10 food needed for growth, but 3 x 4 = 12). By founding the next neighbor at distance three, the excess food can be given to that neighbor. Together with the fish, it can grow quite quickly.
Ah, that looks better than what I did. I'll try again with your suggested set up.
 
Wow. This is just an incredibly interesting read. I'm the type of player that is playing around with the GOTMs and trying to make the jump from monarch to emperor. This advanced strategy makes so much sense, and I can't wait to implement it to my games.

Thanks for the interesting discussion everyone, and hope to be joining you guys eventually in the upper ranks!

I'm glad I'm not the only one benefitting from the expertise on offer here. So far, I have mainly learned how much I didn't know before.

Lanzelot: question for you (or anyone) - say I manage to crank up 10+ big cities producing lots of shields and say that war is the policy. What size and composition of army would you recommend? My target would be either England or India before they get strong defensive units and before the Imdians get war elephants, as I expect to encounter nothing more than spears or pikes. And what would your objective be, elimination or simply profitable expansion?
 
I answered my own question. With an army of 7 catapults, four or five longbows, two or three Javelin throwers and half a dozen horsemen I was able to carve up India in the Middle Ages, war elephants notwithstanding, taking three key cities that yielded horses, wine and iron. Trouble is, while I was doing that, Carthage was wiping England off the map altogether and assuming super power status. With the writing on the wall, I have hacked that one in too. At least I'm not coming last anymore. However, I am baffled as to how to stay in the tech race. In this game I cheated by building the Great Library which meant I was pretty advanced by the time I retired, but without that I would gave been a long way behind.
 
Lanzelot: question for you (or anyone) - say I manage to crank up 10+ big cities producing lots of shields and say that war is the policy. What size and composition of army would you recommend?

Here's my own experience but there's probably better advice in the strategy section.

First kill your enemy's spare units (the one's not defending cities) which he'll be instantly sending in your direction when the war begins. If he's been isolated on an island or at peace for a long time, there will be a lot of them on demigod. I think that the AI usually wants to sends these units, and newly built ones, towards the closest enemy by land (now and then he'll send ships too but only with two-three units) so you can avoid lots of fighting by allying with his close neighbours (closer to his capital and main cities than you). But he also considers terrain, probabilities of capturing and winning etc: if you put a spearman on a choke-point mountain he'll probably take another route (or come by sea if there's no other route, which is much easier to defend against if you don't want the war), or if you lure him with defenseless citys or units he'll surely send all his troops that way. Use it to get his troops to where you want them (where your troops are) and kill them with catapults and your best attackers. Use a move-2 unit to kill the last one in an enemy stack and retreat after, or you'll have to leave the last one alive. Do it in your own territory with the advantage of roads and being able to rest. In his territory HE can move 3 steps per turn by road but you can't, and HE can rest but you can't.

With the spare troops dead you can expect two defenders (enkidu warriors/spearmen/impis/hoplites/numidian mercenaries/pikemen/swiss mercenaries...) per normal city, that's what the AI uses, but more in the capital. Sometimes a unit or two may be resting there too if you let them get away earlier, but they shouldn't be much trouble. Sometimes there's a unit just built or passing by.

  • Bring enough catapults to take the defenders of any city (that you want) down to 1 HP.
  • Bring the strongest attackers available. Even when fighting 1 HP units some of them will be injured; have a few extra so you don't have to wait for them.
  • Defenders to protect your catapults. If you lose them you're screwed, they're worth a lot of shields. The defenders also protect the attackers so that they're at full HP when you arrive at a city. Have a few extra defenders too so you don't have to wait for the wounded ones.
  • Some extra of every unit type to deal with the units that the AI builds and sends at you while you're "expanding". The more enemy cities and the harder difficulty level, the more will be built each turn.
  • 3 normal workers or 1.5 industrious to build connecting roads when needed.

Keep producing military and send them along the roads to protect the captured cities or to replace casualties. If you defend your catapults you shouldn't lose any, if you have enough catapults you should lose very few attackers and if you make your first military leader into a defender army (3 spearmen or better) and walk through hills and mountains your stack will probably not even get attacked.

Catapults have an attack power of 4. In the best case you'll face two fortified regular units with def-2 and no terrain bonus = def-2.5, which should give each bombing a 61.5% success rate, and you'll need 4 successful bombings to get them both down to 1 HP. The number of catapluts to bring depends on how much you want to gamble. If your catapults have bad luck you may have to consider waiting a turn and try again instead of risking your attackers lifes.

In the worst case you'll face two fortified veteran units with def-4 on a hill with walls, which gives each bombing a 33.3% chance of success (about half of the best case, so bring double the amount of catapults) and you'll need 6 successful bombings to get them down to 1 HP (1.5 the number of catapults). Don't kill only one defender, the AI will rush a new one. Kill them both in one turn.
 
Here's my own experience but there's probably better advice in the strategy section.

First kill your enemy's spare units (the one's not defending cities) which he'll be instantly sending in your direction when the war begins. If he's been isolated on an island or at peace for a long time, there will be a lot of them on demigod. I think that the AI usually wants to sends these units, and newly built ones, towards the closest enemy by land (now and then he'll send ships too but only with two-three units) so you can avoid lots of fighting by allying with his close neighbours (closer to his capital and main cities than you). But he also considers terrain, probabilities of capturing and winning etc: if you put a spearman on a choke-point mountain he'll probably take another route (or come by sea if there's no other route, which is much easier to defend against if you don't want the war), or if you lure him with defenseless citys or units he'll surely send all his troops that way. Use it to get his troops to where you want them (where your troops are) and kill them with catapults and your best attackers. Use a move-2 unit to kill the last one in an enemy stack and retreat after, or you'll have to leave the last one alive. Do it in your own territory with the advantage of roads and being able to rest. In his territory HE can move 3 steps per turn by road but you can't, and HE can rest but you can't.

With the spare troops dead you can expect two defenders (enkidu warriors/spearmen/impis/hoplites/numidian mercenaries/pikemen/swiss mercenaries...) per normal city, that's what the AI uses, but more in the capital. Sometimes a unit or two may be resting there too if you let them get away earlier, but they shouldn't be much trouble. Sometimes there's a unit just built or passing by.

  • Bring enough catapults to take the defenders of any city (that you want) down to 1 HP.
  • Bring the strongest attackers available. Even when fighting 1 HP units some of them will be injured; have a few extra so you don't have to wait for them.
  • Defenders to protect your catapults. If you lose them you're screwed, they're worth a lot of shields. The defenders also protect the attackers so that they're at full HP when you arrive at a city. Have a few extra defenders too so you don't have to wait for the wounded ones.
  • Some extra of every unit type to deal with the units that the AI builds and sends at you while you're "expanding". The more enemy cities and the harder difficulty level, the more will be built each turn.
  • 3 normal workers or 1.5 industrious to build connecting roads when needed.

Keep producing military and send them along the roads to protect the captured cities or to replace casualties. If you defend your catapults you shouldn't lose any, if you have enough catapults you should lose very few attackers and if you make your first military leader into a defender army (3 spearmen or better) and walk through hills and mountains your stack will probably not even get attacked.

Catapults have an attack power of 4. In the best case you'll face two fortified regular units with def-2 and no terrain bonus = def-2.5, which should give each bombing a 61.5% success rate, and you'll need 4 successful bombings to get them both down to 1 HP. The number of catapluts to bring depends on how much you want to gamble. If your catapults have bad luck you may have to consider waiting a turn and try again instead of risking your attackers lifes.

In the worst case you'll face two fortified veteran units with def-4 on a hill with walls, which gives each bombing a 33.3% chance of success (about half of the best case, so bring double the amount of catapults) and you'll need 6 successful bombings to get them down to 1 HP (1.5 the number of catapults). Don't kill only one defender, the AI will rush a new one. Kill them both in one turn.
Great stuff. I have bolded (what happened to the highlight button? :confused:) all the ideas that are new to me or are just things I don't do (I lurve the defended city trap :D. I think I have only built a defensive army once, of infantrymen (suck on that!!) and that was probably in a game where I already had four armies of tanks or cavalry :D. Now I think in the current mini-game that India is incredibly weak but I should not wait so long to get stuck in. Carthage keeps building the Statue of Zeus and becoming a mighty power so I don't have all the time in the world to acquire the iron I need to build knights and suchlike. Carthage also has an enormous space to expand into while India and England are treading on each other's toes.

You guys may be surprised at how many times I am willing to play the same darn game but I am a chess player and we tend to start from the same position quite often :D
 
However, I am baffled as to how to stay in the tech race. In this game I cheated by building the Great Library which meant I was pretty advanced by the time I retired, but without that I would gave been a long way behind.

In republic you get 0 martial art, only 1 unit upkeep per town and the rest cost 2 (!) gpt, including workers. If your towns are still small (and your army is big) or many of them are corrupted, the extra gold per tile from republic won't nearly make up for that; your army cost is probably sky high.

In despotism you get 2 martial art; if you protect each town with two units they'll basically be free of upkeep because besides the protection they make two people in the town happy. In republic MA doesn't work so you don't need defenders in each town, you can put them anywhere you want. Only three impis in a central spot can defend many cities in a distance of 6 (or 5 if you want to fortify them) from the occasional unexpected enemy landing or land attack. Four cavalry with move-3 can defend more, and an army even better.

Monarchy is almost always better than despotism; it has only 2 upkeep instead of 4 (you lose 2 gpt per town) but you can irrigate to grow, irrigate to be able to use hills and mountains, you don't get the despotism penalty, there's less corruption and you can cash rush.

Don't worry if you're not in the tech lead; as Lanzelot said staying a little behind is much cheaper. When a tech is known by many civs (that you've met) it will be cheaper to research. If you let them research it first you can use the extra money for military upkeep or rushing instead. Keep track of where your opponents are in the tech tree by watching what wonders they build with F7 or checking the "wonder initiation" setting.

OTOH researching techs first may give you a scientific leader, but it's a small chance to get them and with military force you can capture any city with a wonder.
 
Top Bottom