When to build a great person improvement vs popping the GP

So it seems to me that most of the time it is better to pop the GP rather than use it to build a improvement...

For example an academy gives 8 beakers per turn. Lets assume the city has a 100% bonus (its typically 83% with oxford + university, but lets just assume 100% for ease of calculation).

In the mid game the scientist typically gives me 2.5k+ beakers. So at 16 beakers per turn the academy would take more than 150 turns to pay off vs just popping it....hardly ideal given that this is already more than 100 turns into the game.

Engineers and GPs (if going for full piety) seem to be mainly useful for improvements though, as you need a very high production for wonders and GPs have a very limited use if you use them to spread religions. No point using them to bomb a holy city when the AI will take it back with cheap missionaries. I only ever use GPs to spread religions to friendly AIs who havent founded a religion yet, and in very large cities that missionaries arent cost effective for (or if the AI hates me and wont give me open borders).

Customs house is just lame, especially if you have full piety holy sites.

Musicians seem best for great works, as concert tours are very inefficient.

Writers seem best for culture gains mid game as at +2 culture per turn, it takes forever to pay off.

Artists are the same, golden ages are far more valuable except very early into the game.

Great engineers for improvements? Eh... I usually use them to help rush my wonders.

Academy: What you're missing is

1. Several techs boost the yield.

2. The National College boosts the yield of the city by 50%, which you should already have built before reaching Education.

3. Rationalism has a policy that will boost all yield by 17%

4. Research Labs also boost the yield.

5. If you go Freedom, New Deal boosts academy's science yields. If you go order, Order has a policy boosting science in all cities with factories.

6. The past 8 turns of science will be a far higher value in late game than mid game, and all early academies count towards further boosting the yield for later ones that are bulbed.

Actually Engineers are a whole lot more for the Great Wonders as its much safer on high difficulty levels to use the GE to get the specific Great Wonder you want. In addition, on high difficulty levels, natural born GS are preferred over natural born GE, so its only faith based GE (and sometimes Leaning Tower based one) you end up getting at all.

Piety is unpopular on high levels due to being weaker than both standard full tradition and standard full liberty.

Spawning a GM at all is a waste of a GS due to shared counter.

Early on you want Great Musicians for Great Works. Later on, such as while hosting the Olympics, you want them for tours.

Early game Great Writers would produce very little culture at all (past 8 turns worth). In addition, if you don't make the early ones into Writers spots, you'll lose out on the Oxford theming bonus later and have insufficient tourism to get to exotic over the tourism leaders causing ideological issues.

Late Game GAs are a whole lot more valuable than mid game ones. In addition, if you don't make early ones into works, you'll miss out on the theming bonuses from Hermitage and again have insufficent tourism to get to exotic over the tourism leaders causing ideological issues.

What about a Great Merchant of Venice?

kingfish101 said:

What about a Great Merchant of Venice?

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Venice is so different from other civs that unless stated otherwise all comments assume you're not playing them at the time.
The best use for GMOV comes down to the numerous threads on which city states to buy with them and which to have trade missions with.
Customs Houses would very much be a waste of a GMOV.

joncnunn said:

Academy: What your missing is

1. Several techs boost the yield.

2. The National College boosts the yield of the city by 50%, which you should already have built before reaching Education.

3. Rationalism has a policy that will boost all yield by 17%

4. Research Labs also boost the yield.

5. If you go Freedom, New Deal boosts academy's science yields. If you go order, Order has a policy boosting science in all cities with factories.

6. The past 8 turns of science will be a far higher value in late game than mid game, and all early academies count towards further boosting the yield for later ones that are bulbed.

Actually Engineers are a whole lot more for the Great Wonders as its much safer on high difficulty levels to use the GE to get the specific Great Wonder you want. In addition, on high difficulty levels, natural born GS are preferred over natural born GE, so its only faith based GE (and sometimes Leaning Tower based one) you end up getting at all.

Piety is unpopular on high levels due to being weaker than both standard full tradition and standard full liberty.

Spawning a GM at all is a waste of a GS due to shared counter.

Early on you want Great Musicians for Great Works. Later on, such as while hosting the Olympics, you want them for tours.

Early game Great Writers would produce very little culture at all (past 8 turns worth). In addition, if you don't make the early ones into Writers spots, you'll lose out on the Oxford theming bonus later and have insufficient tourism to get to exotic over the tourism leaders causing ideological issues.

Late Game GAs are a whole lot more valuable than mid game ones. In addition, if you don't make early ones into works, you'll miss out on the theming bonuses from Hermitage and again have insufficent tourism to get to exotic over the tourism leaders causing ideological issues.

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You have bias towards GSes. Spawning GEs and GMs are perfectly viable on Deity. I just won a science/domination (same turn but decided not to launch the spaceship ) game by going full commerce and working all GM slots with no rationalism. Same goes for GE, you can plant a bunch around your military city with new deal and one turn build military units out of it. Who needs wonders when you can just conquer them.

Vitruvius said:

You have bias towards GSes. Spawning GEs and GMs are perfectly viable on Deity. I just won a science/domination (same turn but decided not to launch the spaceship ) game by going full commerce and working all GM slots with no rationalism. Same goes for GE, you can plant a bunch around your military city with new deal and one turn build military units out of it. Who needs wonders when you can just conquer them.

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I want wonders.

Engineer : I find that its much more useful in the long range at least to put down several manufactories and help boost your capital's production output than to rush just one wonder. But it just be me.

joncnunn said:

Academy: What your missing is

1. Several techs boost the yield.

2. The National College boosts the yield of the city by 50%, which you should already have built before reaching Education.

3. Rationalism has a policy that will boost all yield by 17%

4. Research Labs also boost the yield.

5. If you go Freedom, New Deal boosts academy's science yields. If you go order, Order has a policy boosting science in all cities with factories.

6. The past 8 turns of science will be a far higher value in late game than mid game, and all early academies count towards further boosting the yield for later ones that are bulbed.

Actually Engineers are a whole lot more for the Great Wonders as its much safer on high difficulty levels to use the GE to get the specific Great Wonder you want. In addition, on high difficulty levels, natural born GS are preferred over natural born GE, so its only faith based GE (and sometimes Leaning Tower based one) you end up getting at all.

Piety is unpopular on high levels due to being weaker than both standard full tradition and standard full liberty.

Spawning a GM at all is a waste of a GS due to shared counter.

Early on you want Great Musicians for Great Works. Later on, such as while hosting the Olympics, you want them for tours.

Early game Great Writers would produce very little culture at all (past 8 turns worth). In addition, if you don't make the early ones into Writers spots, you'll lose out on the Oxford theming bonus later and have insufficient tourism to get to exotic over the tourism leaders causing ideological issues.

Late Game GAs are a whole lot more valuable than mid game ones. In addition, if you don't make early ones into works, you'll miss out on the theming bonuses from Hermitage and again have insufficent tourism to get to exotic over the tourism leaders causing ideological issues.

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In the renaissance age my capital typically ends up with just 83% science bonus though? Thats with both national college and a university. At that point i can plop the academy down for slightly less than 16 science per turn or bulb it for 100+ turns of the academy output.

Im also playing on custom game settings that are like research costs 150% and build costs 75% of normal, so my games typically end much earlier research wise.

I generally go tradition -> piety -> commerce or exploration, maybe with a dip in patronage for forbidden palace. I can generally top science without rationalism anyway. Might just be but i really like the reformation beliefs and the massive bonus holy sites get when you go full piety, liberty bonuses just seem too little to me (+1 culture per city, etc).

So i typically put down a couple of academies but bulb the later ones when it takes far too long for them to pay off.

I still prefer to use GE's to rush wonders. But manufactories pop up every now and then in my games.

Which wonders do you typically use them for? I find it really hard to get enough GEs to do that except late game, where my capital can make almost any wonder in 6 turns or less...

Question said:

Which wonders do you typically use them for? I find it really hard to get enough GEs to do that except late game, where my capital can make almost any wonder in 6 turns or less...

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It is still worth it to rush wonders even if it takes only 6 turns. 6 turns is a lot and can be use to build other stuff like military and spaceship parts.

Vitruvius said:

It is still worth it to rush wonders even if it takes only 6 turns. 6 turns is a lot and can be use to build other stuff like military and spaceship parts.

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But typically by then i have enough gold to mass purchase anything i want...only wonders cant be purchased. Ive never managed to get near the spaceship race, i always win via cultural or diplomacy way before then...

End game i just make 500+ gold per turn without even really trying. I got up to 1500 as Rome once in a golden age where i had conquered 2 civs on my starting continent (i didnt even bother with external trade routes that game).

Question said:

Which wonders do you typically use them for? I find it really hard to get enough GEs to do that except late game, where my capital can make almost any wonder in 6 turns or less...

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Chichen Itza, Colossus, Petra, Leaning Tower, Red Fort and the ideological wonders.

I understand most of those, but why red fort?

Question said:

I understand most of those, but why red fort?

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Kingfish's sense of humor.

Vitruvius said:

Kingfish's sense of humor.

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because i so funny like that


Well, the defensive buildings bonus has helped me out on several occasions. But mainly I build the Red Fort in games where I am next to an aggressive Civ that wants to claim the entire continent for himself. Notably Shaka and Atilla. Mostly Shaka.

Great Writers, Artists, and Musicians = Almost Always Create Great Works for Tourism Offense/Defense

Great Prophets = 1st Found Religion, 2nd Enhance Religion, 3rd+ Spread Religion or GP Tile Bait

Great Scientists = 1st Academy(Capital), 2nd Academy(Capital), 3rd+ Save for Late Game Bulb Cascade (Science Victory) or Bulb to get Early Artillery (Domination Victory)

Great Merchants = I do not use Great Merchants much anymore, so no comment

Great Engineers = I usually Rush Build Key Wonders. Occasionally I will use one for a Manufactory in a Low Production City.

The rule I've seen for Great Musicians in a culture game is to create great works until the internet tech. The strength of the concert tour is 10x tourism per turn when they are spawned - best for finishing the final culture superpowers.

Would one do the same with a Great Writer to prevent an opponent's culture victory?

Vitruvius said:

You have bias towards GSes. Spawning GEs and GMs are perfectly viable on Deity. I just won a science/domination (same turn but decided not to launch the spaceship ) game by going full commerce and working all GM slots with no rationalism. Same goes for GE, you can plant a bunch around your military city with new deal and one turn build military units out of it. Who needs wonders when you can just conquer them.

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Yeah, if you're good enough you can do this and still win, but it slows down almost all victories when you don't push science hard compared to when you do.
(The exceptions are things like the Sacred Sites gambit and also maps in which its possible to conquer all capitals fairly early if going for domination.)

With the AI being so bad, all single player competitions for a given start use earliest turn of victory for the designated victory condition to determine who the best player is.

Question said:

Engineer : I find that its much more useful in the long range at least to put down several manufactories and help boost your capital's production output than to rush just one wonder. But it just be me.

In the renaissance age my capital typically ends up with just 83% science bonus though? Thats with both national college and a university. At that point i can plop the academy down for slightly less than 16 science per turn or bulb it for 100+ turns of the academy output.

Im also playing on custom game settings that are like research costs 150% and build costs 75% of normal, so my games typically end much earlier research wise.

I generally go tradition -> piety -> commerce or exploration, maybe with a dip in patronage for forbidden palace. I can generally top science without rationalism anyway. Might just be but i really like the reformation beliefs and the massive bonus holy sites get when you go full piety, liberty bonuses just seem too little to me (+1 culture per city, etc).

So i typically put down a couple of academies but bulb the later ones when it takes far too long for them to pay off.

Click to expand...

The first paragraph sounds a lot like you build a lot more world wonders than most people, it's much more popular on Immortal to build very few world wonders and instead of an AI builds one they really want, just conquer the city its in.
A large number of natural born GE means few (if any) natural born GS, which is turn means a much lower science rate.

You can definitely get the 3 main policies within Rationalism before the Rean. era ends to boost from 83% to 100%. If the capital was next to a mountain, that's an additional 50% from the observatory. They'll become even more valuable with Public Schools, Plastics, etc.

Research costing 150% of normal should mean the techs take longer to research than normal, and so a space race or diplomatic victory should take longer.
Build costs of only 75% normal is similar to the production bonuses AIs get on Immortal.

But advice on what to use great people for should be assuming standard game settings unless stated otherwise at the top.

People don't use wining percent against the AI for giving tactics as comparison, it's kind of pointless when it's close to 100% for everything once someone is skilled at a given level. Instead tactics are measured on what gives the quickest turn to victory.

ThisIsHughYoung said:

The rule I've seen for Great Musicians in a culture game is to create great works until the internet tech. The strength of the concert tour is 10x tourism per turn when they are spawned - best for finishing the final culture superpowers.

Would one do the same with a Great Writer to prevent an opponent's culture victory?

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If you are hosting the Olympics, you should also make concert tours during those even if you don't have the internet yet. And also it turns out that a cultural victory is faster if you time the Olympics to occur earlier than the internet. (Normally either the first or second opportunity to have the Olympics gets you the fastest cultural victory and its situation dependent between these two, but playing France or Brazil normally makes the first one the best while playing a civ with no particular culture or tourism advantages tends to make the second opportunity better [provided there's no risk of losing the ability to propose it].)

Great Writers actually give last 8 turns of current culture instead of a locked in 10X strength. However, you shouldn't be at any serious risk of losing a cultural victory anyway as there are several other sources of culture. (Cultural state allies, early great works, etc.) The two points with highest yields will be 8 turns following hosting the worlds fair during a Golden Age lasting the first of the GA ending and the fair ending and the second is late after you've built Broadcast Towers everywhere and have allied every cultural city state. Note that the AI actually does like to make concert tours so you could actually find yourself losing if you actually do wait its its showing 1 turn before they win. (They may perform a tour when its showing 10 turns to victory and instantly win)