I disagree with just about everything said about Dance of the Aurora.
This belief is a great one if you have a tundra start bias, like Sweden. In one game I was able to get around +7 faith just after choosing it.
Sacred Waters isn't that bad.-Sacred Waters(1) - while some cities may be riverside, all cities will eventually reach size 6, making this choice inferior to GofLove almost always.
Faith generating beliefs can be very good.Also don't be scared away from faith generating beliefs. Though religion dies out, you can still work with faith well into the late game, so it will never be just wasted.
That depends - a belief like Desert Folklore might only get other civs a small or no amount of faith if they don't have any significant amount of desert tiles within their region.Faith generating beliefs can be very good.
However, there is the downside that if you spread your religion to other civs, the faith generating effects will simply help the others civs get their own religion which will then compete with yours.
This list is pretty silly... almost every pantheon depends on the situation. Literally all depends on the map and your strategy.
All the rest are really unappealing to me:
-I'd prefer not to pick a pantheon that gives exclusively faith as religion in and of itself is not a victory condition. If I desperately need a specific founder/follower belief, I'd rather prioritize Stonehenge, which is usually not that hard to get, and cross fingers for a religious mountain, but usually I'm flexible enough with the beliefs to take my 2nd, 3rd, or 4th choice and other aspects of the overall strategy take priority.
Out of 8 games that I've won so far, the only one that late-game belief picks were so important that I wanted to be the first (well, second, as it was) to a religion and enhance it before too many beliefs were picked was a specific Theodora cultural victory game, in which I wanted to combine cathedrals/pagodas AND have both oral trad/sacred path. Other than that specific victory condition with that specific civilization on that specific map, there aren't too many situations where I wouldn't mind taking a backup option if beaten to my preferred belief. In just about every other conceivable circumstance, I'd rather have a pantheon that helps burn through social policies, or increase coastal city production, or increase the happy cap, or, my default, increasing population growth which speeds the addition of extra working citizens, increasing the technology, production, and gold of the empire.usually I'm flexible enough with the beliefs to take my 2nd, 3rd, or 4th choice and other aspects of the overall strategy take priority.
Are you sure Sweden has a tundra start bias?
You can use it, but at the expense of growth and/or production. All your good tiles are the ones without the faith, except unforested hills, which aren't generally spammed by the map generator.
if you have a tundra start and are going wide then it can be passable, but it's very rarely amazing.
As a quick note, +4 faith from Natural wonders is pretty terrible. Unless you're Spain, in which case it is sick - because the bonus is doubled and applies to every wonder. Imagine if you get the Great Barrier reef, producing 4 hammers, 4 gold, 6 scinece (or whatever it was) PLUS 8 faith - twice or maybe even thrice! Or how about Mt. Sinai producing 24 faith per turn? Uluru is quite a favourite: 4 food and 20 faith. nomnomnom
Haven't convinced me on either count:
-Sacred Waters: even as Aztecs, where you would want to prioritize riverside cities, all those cities will eventually reach size 6 (and REALLY quickly too with that UB) so there's no gain in taking Sacred H20s over GofL, save slightly earlier access. Also, one of the benefits of floating gardens is increased flexibility of the watermill replacement; not only is growth rate increased by percentage and maintenance reduced, but watermills(FGs) can be built in cities that are next to a lake as well as the default riverside, so you don't need every city to be riverside to take advantage of this great UB. Obviously you'd be better off financially if you could, but unless you're using a map editor or re-rolling for a specific start, you're not going to be able to have every city take advantage of the UB or pantheon happiness, whereas with GofL you are. As for intentionally planning to have cities never reach above size 5, if that's your plan than the empire would probably be better off without that city entirely. As for getting the bonus earlier, I usually micromanage cities enough to ensure that from size 1-3, they're prioritizing growth which makes size 6 come pretty quick. On a random, unedited, not re-rolled map, I'd rather have double the happiness from a pantheon than have half the cities getting it earlier.
-faith exclusive pantheons- I do acknowledge that it's a way to get from pantheon to religion quicker, and that faith doesn't die out so much late game as you can buy great people, and if that's how you want to do it, go ahead. But like I said, with religion/faith playing the role that it does in this game, as a means but NOT an end (no religious victory condition), it seems less than optimal to me to use your faith to reach a bonus that only gives more faith. As for Browd knocking my Stonehenge alternative strategy, like I said,
Out of 8 games that I've won so far, the only one that late-game belief picks were so important that I wanted to be the first (well, second, as it was) to a religion and enhance it before too many beliefs were picked was a specific Theodora cultural victory game, in which I wanted to combine cathedrals/pagodas AND have both oral trad/sacred path. Other than that specific victory condition with that specific civilization on that specific map, there aren't too many situations where I wouldn't mind taking a backup option if beaten to my preferred belief. In just about every other conceivable circumstance, I'd rather have a pantheon that helps burn through social policies, or increase coastal city production, or increase the happy cap, or, my default, increasing population growth which speeds the addition of extra working citizens, increasing the technology, production, and gold of the empire.
I agree that border expansion is weak and Religious Settlements is one of the worst pantheons (if not the worst), but I guess it might be okay if you are playing very few cities and want to expand to the 4th and 5th rings quickly (which can't be bought) in order to get luxuries/resources.That being said, there are certain pantheons that are worthless (Im looking at you religious settlements.)
Too late? You can get a pantheon running around turn 20-30 which is still quite early. At that point in the game you don't have much infrastructure let alone food production, so Fertility Rites won't really kick in until you have improvements and Maritime city states and food buildings.Also, fertility rites comes into play way too late in the game to actually be good.
I am actually very curious about God of Craftsman. Traditionally I've ignored it since 1 hammer seems rather pitiful in the grand scheme of things.Thus, God of Craftsman can actually be really good if youre not investing in religion and dont have any other pantheon beliefs that are that great. Id certainly take it over fertility rights. +1 production per a city is actually pretty huge if you get it early.
One with Nature is fine even if you aren't Spain.As a quick note, +4 faith from Natural wonders is pretty terrible. Unless you're Spain, in which case it is sick - because the bonus is doubled and applies to every wonder. Imagine if you get the Great Barrier reef, producing 4 hammers, 4 gold, 6 scinece (or whatever it was) PLUS 8 faith - twice or maybe even thrice! Or how about Mt. Sinai producing 24 faith per turn? Uluru is quite a favourite: 4 food and 20 faith. nomnomnom
That's okay cause I haven't been convinced on the value of Goddess of Love!Haven't convinced me on either count:
-Sacred Waters: even as Aztecs, where you would want to prioritize riverside cities, all those cities will eventually reach size 6 (and REALLY quickly too with that UB) so there's no gain in taking Sacred H20s over GofL, save slightly earlier access. Also, one of the benefits of floating gardens is increased flexibility of the watermill replacement; not only is growth rate increased by percentage and maintenance reduced, but watermills(FGs) can be built in cities that are next to a lake as well as the default riverside, so you don't need every city to be riverside to take advantage of this great UB. Obviously you'd be better off financially if you could, but unless you're using a map editor or re-rolling for a specific start, you're not going to be able to have every city take advantage of the UB or pantheon happiness, whereas with GofL you are. As for intentionally planning to have cities never reach above size 5, if that's your plan than the empire would probably be better off without that city entirely. As for getting the bonus earlier, I usually micromanage cities enough to ensure that from size 1-3, they're prioritizing growth which makes size 6 come pretty quick. On a random, unedited, not re-rolled map, I'd rather have double the happiness from a pantheon than have half the cities getting it earlier.
I agree that Faith and Religion by itself doesn't do anything.-faith exclusive pantheons- I do acknowledge that it's a way to get from pantheon to religion quicker, and that faith doesn't die out so much late game as you can buy great people, and if that's how you want to do it, go ahead. But like I said, with religion/faith playing the role that it does in this game, as a means but NOT an end (no religious victory condition), it seems less than optimal to me to use your faith to reach a bonus that only gives more faith.
Actually I did suggest Aztecs for Sacred Waters. In the maps I play, I rarely see Lakes. Aztecs will already prioritize rivers (and lakes) due to their unique building, so it makes sense that they will benefit more from Sacred Waters than other civs. You are right that the happiness/city benefit may not always be useful for them.Was aztecs suggested for sacred waters? That'd be one of the last civs I'd take it with. As the netherlands UA is great for expanding quickly, Waters is great for an early REX on a wide (not ICS) strategy, so you still care about rivers but will not get a load of pop that quick. It can make the REX a lot easier than the 6 pop one would. Atecs wouldn't benefit from a per city benefit, I wouldn't take either with them.
I also want to point out that it is a lot easier to spread your religion early on than later, so the faith pantheons really give you a leg up on that front.Faith pantheons - The founder and enhancer are the daddy beliefs, pantheons can be quite good and followers are generally more meh (exceptions being the buildings). The faith pantheon is a decent sized sacrifice but can definitely be worth it for a better founder and earlier spread. It's more to be considered as another option for getting your religion if you don't start next to sinai or deity AI takes out SH before you (pretty much every time for me, I never build SH or GL because of this.)
-----Was aztecs suggested for sacred waters?
Also, a few civs (like the Aztecs and the Floating Gardens) are going to be settling on rivers anyway
They apply the same bonus. One applies to river cities, which can't be all your cities, unless you're really lucky or editing the map. The other applies to all your cities that reach at least size 6. You can make all your cities reach size 6. You can'tmake all your cities riverside, until they add the digging-the-Panama-Canal wonder.That's okay cause I haven't been convinced on the value of Goddess of Love!
Or just cashing in on it early, using the pantheon to push you towards something that will win you the game. Basically:I agree that Faith and Religion by itself doesn't do anything.
However, the flexibility of the Belief system means that Religion can easily help you with: Gold, Happiness, Science, Production, Diplomacy, Culture, War, etc. So building a strong faith foundation sets you up nicely to then convert all that accumulated Faith to something that will win you the game.