Team Free Embassy

zyxy said:
@donsig: I don't think FREE is looking at research costs really, or they would have known we had construction already. I would certainly not send them currency right away - there's no reason to fully trust them right now. We can send HBR+Construction.
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Good point about construction. But if we're telling them we popped currency then I think we should sent it to them now. Not doing so will only cause more distrust on their part - unless we explain we want to trade currency for poly so as to better control our move into the middle ages.

I don't see why we should mistrust them. They've sent their techs when we asked - them giving us republic right away contributed to our currency pop. I'm not so sure either one of us should have to be asking for techs since we have MAAP in place. That's a point we can cover in MAAP II if there is one. I'm looking forward to this second treaty and think we should try to enter into negotiations now and so both teams should put this behind us.

They may not even have another contact. The question we asked in the loast letter was about exploring as well as contacts. I was really fishing to see if they had any idea about the map we're on. Perhaps they figured out what we figured out long ago and don't want to tip us off. Map info is not covered under MAAP.

I would add the following (the bold line is already in the latest version and is merely emboldened here for reference):

Because Currency was popped, the potential trade with SABER is off the table, and we have just sent a note to Saber telling them this. We are holding off sending currency to you for now as we'd like to discuss in more detail later what our timing will be for moving to the middle ages. For instance we're thinking about a polytheism for currency trade to accomplish this transition. There is time to duscuss this later.
 
zyxy said:
@donsig: I don't think FREE is looking at research costs really, or they would have known we had construction already. I would certainly not send them currency right away - there's no reason to fully trust them right now. We can send HBR+Construction.

The letter by General_W looks good to me. Shall we send this off? It needs to be done soon, to give FREE some time to discuss our proposal for Mysticism.
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I agree with you zyxy, in terms of their rude response, I would not send all our techs the first turn. Keep Currency until we get an apology/explanation and they are open about their contacts. they are the ones who should be cap in hand, not us.

If they are open about their contacts, fine. If they refuse, we have a broken treaty on our hands.

Btw, have they given us republic yet?
 
Sent to FREE team account on May 19, 2007:

Dear Azzaman and all FREE people:

You latest letter was received with some shock in The Chambers of The Council! From our point of view, we have bent over backwards to be totally open and honest even above our treaties requirements. We hope we're just taking this letter as more harsh than it was intended.

We finished research on Construction 4 turns ago, and just didn't think about sending it. We apologize. We're happy to send it immediately.
We've actually been focused on trying to pop Currency and thus avoid making any extra deals with team Saber. To do this, we needed Horseback Riding, and then to block Mysticism. We figured, the less we can trade with other teams – the better for both us. Please understand, there was nothing malicious here (quite the opposite!), and we're disappointed that you would even consider that.

Hopefully we don't have to remind you that every trade with a nation outside of our Treaty has been approved by you even before we began negotiations, and there have been no trades that you were not aware of. We just finished HBR last turn, and our gamble paid off as we have also popped Currency the same turn! Because Currency was popped, the potential trade with SABER is off the table, and we have just sent a note to Saber telling them this.

We are a little dismayed at your reluctance to be open with us about any foreign contact you have made. After all, we were very forthcoming with you right from the start, holding nothing back even before our treaty with you was signed. We'll remind you that in Section 3, Point 2 of our treaty you agreed to "immediately notify the other of the contact" and we're saddened that you're not sticking with this for reasons we don't really comprehend? We're happy to chalk this up to a simple mistake like our delay in sending Construction, and we hope to all have a good chuckle about the miscommunications with you later.

Since, as mentioned, we popped Currency from a hut this last turn, we both need to decide how to proceed with the MAAP. We have now finished our part of the joint research programme, and are waiting for you to research Mysticism and Polytheism.

We think it would be beneficial if The Council researches Mysticism. We can start next turn (turn 87) and finish 4 turns later, so please let us know before our next turn what you would like - we would hate to do double research effort! We will of course send Mysticism to you right away, and then you can start on Polytheism.

As compensation for this shift in research effort, we'd like to propose that you can either pay us half the beaker cost in gold (that's 60 gold), or we simply regard this as a research credit for The Council in some Middle Age tech deal that we'll hammer out later. The Council would prefer the latter option, but in any case, this doesn't need to be decided right away.

Finally, we'd just like to note that we think some of this breakdown in communication was due to General_W's family emergency that has had him in the hospital all week taking care of his 2 month old daughter. She's doing much better and should be going home from the Hospital this weekend, and we expect the General to return to active duty and hopefully help prevent any future misunderstandings.

We hope to have cleared up any doubts some of you may have had about our intentions or our actions.

The Council
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Sorry donsig, but I think there's not much time to discuss anymore, since the save already returned to us, so the version where we leave it open which techs we'll transfer seems best: this gives us slightly less than 1 day to decide whether to give currency to FREE. I wouldn't, because we would then have to trust them to give us two techs. After their latest letter, I'm not so sure they deserve that trust. Also, the MAAP probably doesn't really require it.

@tomasjj: yes, we did receive republic.
 
We should make sure we have shipped approximately enough so that we are fairly even in terms of value.

I wonder if they don't realize we can do 4 turn research?
 
I agree we shouldn't send currency now. I just think that not sending it and not saying something about not sending it might exacerbate their distrustful feelings towards us. We must remember two things here:

1) Feelings are not rational things - they can feel distrustful of us even if all rational signs say we are trustworthy.

2) FREE is supposed to be our main ally until we are ready to strike out on our own in a drive for victory. We are not ready to do that yet and so perhaps it is in our best interest to treat them with kid gloves for now.
 
Great redo of the letter! It's much more effective at conveying our position.

It's easy to forget, but as Donsig mentioned above, FREE is more than simply a trading partner. They are a Close Ally. Even if they distrust us, and send an insulting letter, we need to treat them with the respect we ourselves deserve. Angry letters back and forth only serve to drive wedges between allies, and this help our enemies.

I think we've handled this one pretty well!
 
Two messages from FREE. It seems everything is fine again :). Nine turns of anarchy must hurt them very hard! Let's hope we have better luck!

Concerning their proposal on Polytheism, we could research it in 5-6 turns. It might be good if we did: the timing of discovery of Poly would nicely coincide with the construction of The Torch and (hopefully) the dispersal of the barb camps. We could then descend into anarchy at the age change, and FREE can take the lead on MA research while we go through the revolution.

Dear Council,

I assure you no harm was meant with my last letter to you. I simply needed some clarifications for the few in our team who thought their may have been something shady going on.

We know what our treaty states, which is why we needed to know whether you had cheated us thereby nullifying our obligations to inform you of any other contacts.

As it is, we still have not met anyone else, but we hope to change that in the not too distant future.

We should be able to send Mysticism next turn, so there is no need for you to do any research on it.

I apoligise for my direct and aggressive letter, but I believe that it is much better for our alliance if the discussion made is upfront and without spin. Such a thing could have caused much unrest between each other had we not sorted this out quickly.

FREE-Council ambassador,
azzaman333
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Greeting to the Wise and Forgiving People of The Council,

The Council said:
Finally, we'd just like to note that we think some of this breakdown in communication was due to General_W's family emergency that has had him in the hospital all week taking care of his 2 month old daughter. She's doing much better and should be going home from the Hospital this weekend, and we expect the General to return to active duty and hopefully help prevent any future misunderstandings.
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I think that this was the real issue; we weren't talking to each other. And I can fully understand General_W's plight as he expected each day to bring his baby daughter home. Our son spent last Christmas and New Year's in the hospital with malaria and each day we thought he would come home tomorrow. Granted, he is 21, so he wasn't totally helpless, but it priorities change when a family member is not well. In times like that a game just doesn't matter.

Looking back now I see that Donsig's communiqué was just meant to touch base and keep in contact. I think we took it to mean that he was now our contact person with The Council. Had we known that the great general was indisposed I am sure we would have responded differently.

I think we both goofed. :(

We've actually been focused on trying to pop Currency and thus avoid making any extra deals with team Saber. To do this, we needed Horseback Riding, and then to block Mysticism. We figured, the less we can trade with other teams – the better for both us… We just finished HBR last turn, and our gamble paid off as we have also popped Currency the same turn! Because Currency was popped, the potential trade with SABER is off the table, and we have just sent a note to Saber telling them this.
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Ah, so this is what you had been doing! :goodjob:

And :salute: on a very clever bit of Gameplay.

FREE update

We have learned Republic, as you know, and have revolted to that form of government. But the Great Meleet has given unto us 9 turns of anarchy before we get there. As of now, in Turn 86, we have 5 turns to go.

We have just learned Mysticism and we will send it to next turn (87) so you should get it the following turn (88).

We are learning Polytheism, and just began to learn it this turn. At our current rate, it will take 14 turns to learn this tech, but maybe less once we get into Republic.

This leaves just one tech on the MAAP for one of us to learn. And I'm not sure how to proceed that works for both of us. For no reason at all I expect The Council to revolt to Republic and to do that soon. That means some turns of anarchy for you while we are in anarchy. I think we need to discuss this part further. We're already in anarchy, so it might be best for you to avoid anarchy, if you can learn Poly faster than us. If it takes about as long, well, join the anarchy party and get it over with! We can then both enter the Middle Ages together and anarchy-free.

We have been exploring but have only found stories of those known as Gongers and Babes. We have seen no land, but have found coastal waters in the middle of the ocean. Our little vessel, Curragh1, has survived several turns at sea, far more than we expected. Some where due to bad sailing directions, but this little thing has ended in sea tiles on Turns 83, 84 and 85, ending this last turn in the mid-ocean coastal waters mentioned earlier

Three turns at sea for us and at least four turns at sea for you. Maybe the waters are safer than we thought? Or maybe not, we lost sight of the Chamsuri, after Turn 81.

Sincerely yours,

Art Parry

aka CommandoBob

Let FREEdom Ring,
Let the white dove sing…
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Proposal for a letter, feel free to edit. In particular we may have to elaborate a bit on the last part:

Dear friends,

Thanks for your swift reply. We are relieved that there was no harm intended in your last letter, for a moment we feared our alliance was lost! Anyway, we are happy that we talked it over and that our worries were unfounded. We have sent you Construction and HBR last turn (turn 87) and can send Currency also, anytime you want.

We haven't appointed a new contact person, because we expect the General back any moment. In the meantime, if you just keep sending your communications to our team account, some of us will pick it up.

Concerning Chamsuri, she was unfortunately lost at sea. She's greatly mourned, but others will follow where she went, and eventually we will discover new lands and new people!

Nine turns of anarchy :eek:! That must be hard to swallow. But it's amazing that you still manage to research Mysticism so quickly, hats off!

Concerning Polytheism, we don't intend to take our anarchy just yet and can research it in 5 or 6 turns, so we would like to propose that we pick up this one, in the interest of speed. If you send us Mysticism on the next turn, we will start on it right away. We will of course pass it to you upon discovery which will propel both of us into the Middle Ages. The unbalance in beakers contributed by both our teams will only be temporary because we will also have to go through anarchy at some time, and we think this can be compensated by a tech deal in the Middle Ages.

This all means that we are drawing near the end of the MAAP. We would like to extend it into the Middle Ages and further improve the fortunes of our nations! As you know, the Middle Age Technology Tree is nicely divided in an upper and lower branch, which makes it extremely suitable for a tech sharing agreement of two nations! Please let us know your thoughts on this!

Best regards,
your friends of The Council
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EDIT: sent on May 20, 2007

EDIT: here's an overview of the MA tech costs. Blue are required, red are optional. We might consider to include some optional ones, like Chivalry and Military Tradition:
 
Great letter, no complaints. :)

EDIT: Except Chamsuri is mentioned both as a 'he' and a 'she'.
 
FREE has the save now and they need a reply soon, especially for the Poly part. As this letter seems quite uncontroversial, I'll send it off now, hopefully that's ok with everyone. I added one line at the end to invite them to reply.

Some things we need to decide for ourselves:
- What type of tech deal do we want with FREE in the MA. As exclusive as the MAAP, or are we going to allow trading with others?
- Do we have a preference which branch of the tech tree we want to do? Upper or lower?
- Which optional techs do we want to include?
- ...
 
Regarding techs upper or lower....we have a prebuild for Sistines.
Hwacha is on metallurgy.

An alliance might break this age, as there are bound to be more contacts - warmongering will pick up - guaranteed.
So, we would bottom be best then for us?

That hwacha sure would be fine for defending our shores against aggressors...and triggering a GA.

Not sure which optionals are worth it. Johanns would be nice to have, it gives a lot of happy faces - less lux and more research.
 
zyxy said:
Some things we need to decide for ourselves:
- What type of tech deal do we want with FREE in the MA. As exclusive as the MAAP, or are we going to allow trading with others?
- Do we have a preference which branch of the tech tree we want to do? Upper or lower?
- Which optional techs do we want to include?
- ...
Click to expand...

We may want to structure MAAP II differntly than we did MAAP. Simply divvying up the two branches may not be the best way to split the research. I think we need to identify both out short and long term goals and construct a treaty based on those. We will also need to be flexible since our goals might change due to circumstances.

If we build the torch then our first priority is theology (for the Sistine Chapel) and our second is education (for universities). These two fit together so I suggest we have FREE work towards this goal while we are in anarchy. Once we get education we can go from there.

If we don't get the torch then we might want to consider making chivalry a short term goal.

There are quite a few unknowns - not only who will get the torch but what free techs we'll get. (Isn't there is a chance we'll both get the same one?) There are also some powerful optional techs (like economics) that we might want to consider. (Are these also eligible for SGLs?) Perhaps MAAP II should not encompass all of the middle ages or at least not all at once. Perhaps we should consider a Mini-MAAP to get us to education. If we adopt that course then I'd say the Mini-MAAP should include the same trading restrictions as the original MAAP.

EDIT: Getting education will cost either 3600 or 2520 beakers depending on whether or not one of us gets monotheism for free. Getting invention will be 2280, 2400 or 3360 beakers depending on whether we get feaudalism and / or engineering for free. By the same token gunpowder would be 3720 or 3840 beakers.

EDIT 2: Here's what I see as the possibilities for Mini-MAAP:

Code: 
[b]Free techs     education     invention / gunpowder[/b]
both mono         2520         3360
mono & feud       2520         2400
mono & eng        2520         2280
both feud         3600                     3840
both eng          3600                     3720
feud & eng        3600                     2760

If we are going into anarchy upon entering the middle ages then I think we want FREE to start on the upper path. They can then continue on it or we can switch sometime.
 
donsig said:
There are quite a few unknowns - not only who will get the torch but what free techs we'll get. (Isn't there is a chance we'll both get the same one?)
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Quite some things to consider... :crazyeye:
Before dipping in deeply:

How does the "Interturn" work in multiplayer games? :confused:

If we finish Poly, get our free tech, can we send both at once to FREE?
If not, we can get the same free techs very well (33% chance).
If yes, will FREE get their free ;) tech after they got ours or between those two? I doubt the latter but you never know.

Any experiences from other multiplayer games?
 
The answer is no. We can send Poly, but they don't get it until they accept on their turn, and until then we cannot send our free tech.
 
Banks also rock for us....so Theo - Edu - Banking would be good... Although we will spend some time building unis, so we don't need banking right away.
 
If we spend our first turns of the MA in anarchy (rather less than 9 turns :rolleyes: ), we should let FREE go for Mono / Theo because they will defintely be faster. To research Edu for ourselves would be good for a better timing of uni prebuilds...

But all plans fail or pass with our free techs and the torch... :mischief:

tomasjj said:
Banks also rock for us....so Theo - Edu - Banking would be good... Although we will spend some time building unis, so we don't need banking right away.
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:dubious: I doubt that banks become interesting for us too soon.
Neither luxuries (before Astro) nor maintenance or unit upkeep demand banks in the near future. :nono:
I even doubt we will have more then 1-2 markets during the MA...
 
Paul#42 said:
If we spend our first turns of the MA in anarchy (rather less than 9 turns :rolleyes: ), we should let FREE go for Mono / Theo because they will defintely be faster. To research Edu for ourselves would be good for a better timing of uni prebuilds...

But all plans fail or pass with our free techs and the torch... :mischief:


:dubious: I doubt that banks become interesting for us too soon.
Neither luxuries (before Astro) nor maintenance or unit upkeep demand banks in the near future. :nono:
I even doubt we will have more then 1-2 markets during the MA...
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Sorry, I'll stop posting. I obviously have little to add to the debates here.
 
tomasjj said:
Sorry, I'll stop posting. I obviously have little to add to the debates here.
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:blush: Oh, I did not mean to be so harsh.

Don't feel bad because I have a different opinion - and don't quit anyway before you heard different opinions. I may be wrong also (and I actually am as you can read in various posts here), especially as I have no multiplayer experience.

I think this whole game (all Civ-games actually) are about learning, team play, suggestions and criticism. :pat:
 
tomasjj said:
Banks also rock for us....so Theo - Edu - Banking would be good... Although we will spend some time building unis, so we don't need banking right away.
Click to expand...

True but as you say, maybe not right away. We're trying for the Sistine Chapel so we'll want temples and cathedrals in our main cities, too! Then, will we also think about Copernicus's Observatory? (That may be another wonder we build defensively - so that FREE or SABER don't get it.) But that's another reason I think we don't want to lock ourselves into a straight upper / lower division of the tech tree. Once we have education we may want one of us working on astronomy while the other researches banking. I think timing and communication will be more important in this age.

Is it too early to begin drafting a letter about an agreement to reach education and invention or gunpowder?
 
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