Tradition's 4 cities opening

snarzberry said:
This is one of the key ideas if you want to get a really fast science victory. In the games where I've been winning around turn 230 I have taken all of tradition and then straight into rationalism. This can be tricky or simple depending on your tech rate. In my best game I had 290 bpt on turn 140, and if you can accelerate your science that fast it makes getting acoustics or astronomy open in time a much easier task.

I've been going for 3 or 4 cities depending on dirt, settling my second city with a rush bought library and then building NC in the capital before expanding to the 3rd or 4th city.

Getting Education as quickly as possible is important, so you want to tech for your resources and then beeline it through Civil Service. Then if you have observatory spots you can take the water techs and into Astronomy, or just take Acoustics alternatively.

You want Education fast so you can start running scientists but also so you can sign RAs as early as possible. In GandK you need to sign 4 waves of RAs, as things stand now, in order to complete the required spaceship techs. It's for this reason that babylon is still the best science civ, the early accelerated bpt gets Education open faster than any other civ. So if you finish Education on turn 90 your RAs will come on 120, 150, 180 and 210 giving you 20 turns to build the parts. The later you sign the RAs the later you will finish.

The amount of DoFs limits how fast you can finish, but I've found on deity that 4 - 6 stable partners is normal. The early RAs matter much less than the later ones.
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I thought it was impossible but now i have 282 bpt on turn 140 with Greek (immortal):)

295 bpt if I use my 3 market specialist (T140).
Are u using specialist except science (sometimes I use workshop)?
I wait until the last 8 turn before i use GS (maximize), is this wrong?

I only build 2 Academies

Are u building any Trading posts?

I was distracted that 5 AI DoW (only contact with 3) on me so education was done T99. 2 cities with observatorium, 1 Jungle city and my Capital. I rush bought 2 library, 2 universities and 1 observatory. Open rationalism with Oracle on T113 (Astronomy). 4 RA partners (2 @ T129 and 2 @ T134/135). I have 10 lux (5 diff)

I have meet 15 of 16 CS and only one is Culture (+26 when Ally)... It will be hard to get 2 free tech :(
It's fun to compete with AI using spies and coup Culture and Maritime CS :)
Spoiler :
 
I've been doing the math in another thread about the exact benefits of saving vs settling GS. From the looks of it, to make up for settling you have to complete at least 8 RAs in the period between getting Scientific Method and Plastics based on having 700 bpt after having built labs. Any GS after this point will never make up for the loss of beakers from not bulbing while if you get one super early you are likely to get more out of it than if you had saved it. My suggestion is to settle all GS up until Scientific Method finishes, then sign 8 RAs asap and save the rest.
 
S.K. Ren said:
My suggestion is to settle all GS up until Scientific Method finishes, then sign 8 RAs asap and save the rest.
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My problem is that i get my first gs a few turns before this tech. I usually get 2 ge before anything else. But if double pop a gs and a ge around turn 125 i will settle it. If i don't double pop great people then my first gs comes from PT a bit later.

I like to research the bottom tech tree first(production, units, ND) :)

Of course, if i beeline Education harder i will certainly settle my 1-2 first gs if i follow what you said.
 
Robert Smith said:
Do You se them for PT and Leaning Tower?
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ge--->Pisa--->free ge--->PT. I get an early workshop in capital and manually run a ge for Pisa later.
 
Is it really necessary to burn GEs on these wonders when you can hard build them comfortably? Seems like an early Academy would be more useful unless the slightly earlier Pisa is getting you an extra GS with its +25% GPP (which I doubt).
Is the GE used on PT netting you a bunch of boosted RAs that you otherwise wouldn't get?
 
ifinnem said:
Is it really necessary to burn GEs on these wonders when you can hard build them comfortably?
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Lot of hammers saved. I can build more things. Necessary? At deity maybe, but this works well with my playstyle.
 
Tabarnak said:
They can also take more cities from the AI...
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I didn't realize why you take AI cities until I open your spanish game save . These puppets are only for extra lux, correct? :p And if there are no lux, you don't take it (or burn it down)?

Do you ever reconsider to annex a puppet either direct or later? (for building space parts)

In your spanish game, do you never leave jungle for the 2 extra :c5science: ? (3 :c5science: with trading posts)

Tabarnak said:
Lot of hammers saved. I can build more things. Necessary? At deity maybe, but this works well with my playstyle.
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I have problem to get tall cities due to switching to productions focus, I will definitely try this.
Tabarnak said:
While finishing NC(with the help of Aristocracy) into Capital
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Do you never use production focus? Not even for NC and/or Universities? (if no, is this the reason you always build workshops before education)

How about specialist, do you use any other than scientist? (workshops in the beginning, impact on tall cities...)
 
Puppets are always profitable with spare happiness.

I work a ge slot from the moment that i can until the end of game(i try to get another one for Hubble).

A workshop indirectly help a city to not being crippled by growth by letting him focused on food while working important buildings in a reasonable timeframe. Huge cities can also work a lot of specialists. In fact, huge cities rock in G&K :)
 
Tabarnak said:
Lot of hammers saved. I can build more things. Necessary? At deity maybe, but this works well with my playstyle.
Click to expand...

Yeah interesting, I guess the question is whether the hammers saved is worth the beakers lost from a GS...

I need to try your Workshop first - it always seems like such a detour from Education first for me...
 
Tabarnak said:
Lot of hammers saved. I can build more things. Necessary? At deity maybe, but this works well with my playstyle.
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GE for the PT - generally necessary. The AI seems to like entering Renaissance via Banking, and a number of them will go through Education->Scientific Theory right after that. So they will get there relatively early.

the Leaning Tower is less important to use a GE on, unless you get there late.
 
Tabarnak said:
Some obvious :

  1. NC before turn 85 after 4 cities
  2. Education around turn 100(if going for workshops first, which i think is the best)
  3. Get 3-4 allied cs around turn 100 with at least 10-9-9-8 :c5citizen: cities
  4. Most DoFs as possible for RAs
  5. Public schools unlocked for turn 135-140
  6. Research labs unlocked for turn 165-170
  7. Apollo before turn 180 with 20+ :c5citizen: everywhere
With 4 RAs per wave, you can hit sub 210. Maybe sub 200 with 6 of them. My personnal best is 208. Only 2 RAs per wave, but played with an extremely buffed map :)
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I can fix 1-6 but i have problem with 7. Do you build research labs in several cities? If I switch to prod. i will never have 20+ everywhere. Do You save money and buy a lab only in capital (lot of founds go to soldier upgrade and RA...)?
Tabarnak said:
I work a ge slot from the moment that i can until the end of game(i try to get another one for Hubble)
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MadDjinn said:
GE for the PT - generally necessary. The AI seems to like entering Renaissance via Banking, and a number of them will go through Education->Scientific Theory right after that. So they will get there relatively early.

the Leaning Tower is less important to use a GE on, unless you get there late.
Click to expand...
I will play the same map again but save one GE for Hubble, it's hard to get more than one GE.

With this tactic i build NO (0) academies
 
Robert Smith said:
I can fix 1-6 but i have problem with 7. Do You save money and buy a lab only in capital (lot of founds go to soldier upgrade and RA...)?
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When you get research labs the idea is to rush buy 3 or 4 of these buildings 8-9 turns before your 3rd wave of RAs finishes. Then you burn all your gs.

1st wave between 95 and 104 for Scientific Theory 30 turns later
2nd wave between 126 and 135 for Plastic 30 turns later
3rd wave between 157 and 166 for Apollo tech 30 turns later
4th wave for last parts between 188 and 197 for a sub 200-210 finish

But...it's insanely difficult to get these results. Difficulty level(RA power), terrain and friendly civs are needed. You also need an enormous amount of :c5gold: to rush buy a ton of buildings during your game. In theory it should work but i never reached this level yet(208 turns best science game so far but biaised by an OP start...the famous Spain game).
 
Tabarnak said:
1st wave between 95 and 104 for Scientific Theory 30 turns later
2nd wave between 126 and 135 for Plastic 30 turns later
3rd wave between 157 and 166 for Apollo tech 30 turns later
4th wave for last parts between 188 and 197 for a sub 200-210 finish

But...it's insanely difficult to get these results.
Click to expand...
It's difficult enough when your math is right. ;) What 4th wave?
 
I know this may be a question for the war academy section but I wanted to thank Tabarnak for posting this awesome opening.

When locating spot to settle city what do you priortize? Luxury above all else I would think but in a lot of cases there are a lot better non luxury city placements that have an abundance of food & production in them. Is there some calc I might use? (lux=4, food=1, gold=0.5 etc)? Thanks
 
OK, this could be my record on the famous spain map...

Unlocked research labs on T155.
I have 3GS and 1GE for Hubble. Next GS at T168, and 1 more from Religion T173 (I have already spent 1000 faith on religion =>3GP
Population 17, 16, 12 and 11 (+ 2 puppets) current bpt is 471. (Food/turn in Barcelona and Madrid is 28 and 18 )
4RA at 93, 4RA at 124 and 3RA (Denmark is hostile...) at 155.
Last policy in rationalism will be done T167...
Gold per turn 105, 684 in the bank after last 3 RA. will sell some lux and buy res. lab in Capital (120 bpt)
5 CS ally 3 maritime and 2 culture
I have Gao and one more small puppet (from Askia)...
I have 3 Aluminum + 8 from CS (optional I can settle a settler on a 8Al source)

I can give u a complete write up later, first 80 turns was great.

I estimate to unlock Apollo before T170. But after this I really suck... Pls. I need your help to finish a nice Science victory. Production sucks. Madrid 40 with IW and Barcelona 28. Is starving the way to go?
Cordoba 25, I will build some more mines here and I will build factories in Madrid & Barcelona
 
Big cities are needed near the end to maximize raw science and production. If you keep having low cities you will struggle post 200 turns and fail to get a fast science rate. Near the end you need a lot of gs to propulse yourself far away into the tech tree and you need these raw beakers floating around 1000 bpt to unlock every techs in time.
 
Tabarnak said:
Big cities are needed near the end to maximize raw science and production. If you keep having low cities you will struggle post 200 turns and fail to get a fast science rate. Near the end you need a lot of gs to propulse yourself far away into the tech tree and you need these raw beakers floating around 1000 bpt to unlock every techs in time.
Click to expand...
Y, I know :( But how did you do with production on the spain map. 2 or 3 cities? starving, space factories etc. pls :)
My plan is to unlock Apollo and Hubble with 2 free tech +3GS. After Hubble I will have at least 4 GS (incl. 2 from Hubble) + Oxford + 3RA at T186. But production and best tech. path after Hubble... :(

Edit:
This topic has really helped me to improve the first 150 turns, pls help me with the last 50 :)
 
@Robert while you are waiting for help on the endgame can you help me with the early game...

How are you getting to Education in the 90s and then Renaissance in the early 100s?
What's your tech path and building order? (Are you going via MC as Tabarnak suggests?)
How early and what CS allies?

I just can't seem to get there until ~T120 even without going via MC... (Immortal level btw)
 
I've gotten spoiled now. I tried playing an archipelago map and using this opening, it wasn't pretty.

Too hard to find trading partners, and you need Optics to settle in good spots, or take poor spots on your opening island. If you can even fit 4 cities on it.

The only reason I tried was I wanted to try out Carthage and a water based map, instead of roads, sounded interesting. The actually play wasn't fun though.
 
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