I think it's time we started doing stuff like this. Get some super high-tech high-industry onto the North American continent
Elon Musk's Hyperloop super train
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hobbsyoyo
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You say that like it's not a big deal.
I can tell you there's not much you can do to 'damp vibrations' when the ground splits apart 10 feet under your track. Again, I'm not saying this is a unique problem with this system, but I still suspect he's over-optimistic on how well this though-exercise can deal with the actual problems presented by a strike-slip fault.
And lots of people are saying that's extremely unrealistic. According to the critics he'd have to get CalTran to hand over their own right-of-ways that are pretty much exactly the routes he want.
Critics are also saying this plan is solely intended to scuttle the rail project. I have no idea about that; I don't know that he's against that plan or whatever. Just more of an fyi.
Even still, his estimates are probably wildly low.
That's another reason to discount the project in my opinion. Why give away an idea that totally could work and is perfect in inception?
Oh btw, apparently Monday he said he's thinking about forming a company to build a test track, just like Warpus suggested he should do.
I agree with this statement in general terms. I don't dislike the project at all, I think it's quite neat. I just feel the need to criticize it to balance out the hype of the hyperloop.
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
The onion has picked up on it
It's an interesting idea, and I vaguely remember hearing about similar vague ideas sometime in the past. It seems a bit too far-fetched for now though, although hobbsyoyo is probably a better judge of this than I am. At this point, anything that stops American infrastructure from backsliding into the same level as some developing nations is a good thing.
(It can't run up I-5, as I-5 doesn't go through the Bay Area. The only road directly connecting SF and LA is US 101, which runs down the Pacific coast and through at least three other metro areas in between. I have no idea how California's rail system - if it has one - is set up, so can't speak for that)
It's an interesting idea, and I vaguely remember hearing about similar vague ideas sometime in the past. It seems a bit too far-fetched for now though, although hobbsyoyo is probably a better judge of this than I am. At this point, anything that stops American infrastructure from backsliding into the same level as some developing nations is a good thing.
(It can't run up I-5, as I-5 doesn't go through the Bay Area. The only road directly connecting SF and LA is US 101, which runs down the Pacific coast and through at least three other metro areas in between. I have no idea how California's rail system - if it has one - is set up, so can't speak for that)
hobbsyoyo
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I am definitely not an expert in this at all. So don't take my word for it!
I'm just trying to point out what seem to me obvious faults and remind people that Elon has a track record of ginning up hype on his projects that in turn never happen, slip deadlines, go over budget or in other ways under-deliver. He's amazing at putting up cool looking vids and really terrible at explaining how it's going to work in reality.
Winner posted some really good questions about some of the capabilities that SpaceX says they can deliver with their reusable Falcon 9 project. I can't answer those objections because they're valid and Elon is so short on details that it's impossible to know what how Elon plans on dealing with them. I bring that up because I feel that's exactly what's going on here. He makes bold claims with vague details and extremely optimistic figures, people ask 'huh? how's that work exactly?' and then he responds with nothing while his fanboys go on the offensive.
<not calling anyone here an Elon Musk fanboy>
This idea is also not new by any stretch, Goddard had a similar proposal back in ~1909 and there have been periodic revisits of it over the years. The Soviets even designed a system in the 30's but abandoned it. Makes you wonder why it never worked out and what's different now, you know? I'm sure lots of things have changed and Elon does have some novel tech behind him (self-powering tubes with solar arrays), still I need more details!
I also haven't read the pdf yet, so don't take my word for anything.
I'm just trying to point out what seem to me obvious faults and remind people that Elon has a track record of ginning up hype on his projects that in turn never happen, slip deadlines, go over budget or in other ways under-deliver. He's amazing at putting up cool looking vids and really terrible at explaining how it's going to work in reality.
Winner posted some really good questions about some of the capabilities that SpaceX says they can deliver with their reusable Falcon 9 project. I can't answer those objections because they're valid and Elon is so short on details that it's impossible to know what how Elon plans on dealing with them. I bring that up because I feel that's exactly what's going on here. He makes bold claims with vague details and extremely optimistic figures, people ask 'huh? how's that work exactly?' and then he responds with nothing while his fanboys go on the offensive.
<not calling anyone here an Elon Musk fanboy>
This idea is also not new by any stretch, Goddard had a similar proposal back in ~1909 and there have been periodic revisits of it over the years. The Soviets even designed a system in the 30's but abandoned it. Makes you wonder why it never worked out and what's different now, you know? I'm sure lots of things have changed and Elon does have some novel tech behind him (self-powering tubes with solar arrays), still I need more details!
I also haven't read the pdf yet, so don't take my word for anything.
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
The Soviets also tried to drill into the Earth's mantle for the hell of it, so I suppose...hmmm...
I really wish the Americans dedicated more public funds to things like that
I really wish the Americans dedicated more public funds to things like that
Winner
Diverse in Unity
There were similar proposals in the US (peaceful use of nuclear weapons for mega-engineering projects, it was "in" for a while). And there is nothing infeasible about it, except that it would be a PR suicide in pretty much any country on Earth, including North Korea
hobbsyoyo
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Yeah I know, and the US even detonated an underground warhead in the Nevada test range to measure the radiation dose put off by it in the Plowshare (???think that's the name) shot.
The key difference is that the glorious USSR actually set them off in the open in full-on tests.
I think the Russians also still have plans in place to seal off deep sea oil wells with nuclear weapons. It would've stopped the Deepwater Horizon disaster, but also would have caused another ecological disaster IMO.
Edit: Quick Wikipedia check says we did many more than just one test. And the Russians did even more than that, including open-air tests that countries objected to as violations of the Test Ban Treaty.
Wish I could find a pick of the explosion they used to dig a canal. It's really cool.
The key difference is that the glorious USSR actually set them off in the open in full-on tests.
I think the Russians also still have plans in place to seal off deep sea oil wells with nuclear weapons. It would've stopped the Deepwater Horizon disaster, but also would have caused another ecological disaster IMO.
Edit: Quick Wikipedia check says we did many more than just one test. And the Russians did even more than that, including open-air tests that countries objected to as violations of the Test Ban Treaty.
Wish I could find a pick of the explosion they used to dig a canal. It's really cool.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Yeah I know, and the US even detonated underground warheads to measure the radiation dose put off by them.
The key difference is that the glorious USSR actually set them off in the open.
Hey, don't dis the Russians. If they hadn't flouted safety concerns, we'd never have learned a lot of things. For example, they're the only ones who had actually flown a hot nuclear reactor in space. I think they also had a nuclear-powered aeroplane. They're very Kerbal in lots of things...
And they proved that a 50 megaton nuke isn't big enough to set Earth's atmosphere on fire
Well, it's not impossible. Japan is littered with high speed elevated track, so that says something. I'm not sure if any of Japan's tracks cross the same sort of faults as this one, but this shouldn't discount the proposal out of hand. Which you're not doing, but some critics are.
Again, this is a proposal for a public transit project - CalTran could pick it up, even. He's not saying "I, Elon Musk, want this land for my project".
Here's a brief on the route, from the PDF:
Not just the tech, but also the design and testing process is fundamentally different now.
hobbsyoyo
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Hehehe the Tsar Bomba is so amazing. It was supposed to be a 100 megaton explosion, but the designer felt so uneasy about the specter of radiation contamination that he dialed it back to 50 on his own.Hey, don't dis the Russians. If they hadn't flouted safety concerns, we'd never have learned a lot of things. For example, they're the only ones who had actually flown a hot nuclear reactor in space. I think they also had a nuclear-powered aeroplane. They're very Kerbal in lots of things...
And they proved that a 50 megaton nuke isn't big enough to set Earth's atmosphere on fire
Oh, I think it was the US that had a nuclear powered bomber. They never hooked up the reactor to a propulsion system, but they did fly an active reactor on a bomber in a few test flights. In the Space Cadet threads VR and I talked about it on one of the first pages.
Very Kerbal indeed.
Apparently he said on Monday he's looking into making a company to explore the idea.
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
The US also had the infamous "nuclear manhole" test that possibly (albeit unlikely) managed to get an object into space several years before Sputnik.
peter grimes: Interesting, I need to look closer at this pdf then.
peter grimes: Interesting, I need to look closer at this pdf then.
http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdfEDIT:
Everything old is new again! I had never heard of Project Tubeflight before.
It's just frustrating sometimes. As a mundane muggle, I just cannot significantly increase the odds of any specific project going forwards.
The Soviets also tried to drill into the Earth's mantle for the hell of it, so I suppose...hmmm...
I really wish the Americans dedicated more public funds to things like that
I was reading in Physics Today last night about plans to try again. The Integrated Ocean Drilling Program has three promising sites picked out. They claim it is now technically feasible and plan to be drilling in a few years.
schlaufuchs
Break My Heart
The route Musk is proposing is relatively similar to the proposed HSR's although due to noise and area concerns would be able to run the more ideal and direct route along I-5 rather than the more circuitous route SE through the Bakersfield area and then SW to LA. Yes it's true that I-5 doesn't run to SF, it goes through Sacramento and then up north through Oregon, Washington, and into BC. At some point he's going to have to cross from the Central Valley into the Silicon Valley. The traditional route from LA to SF is to ride the Grapevine (I-5) up until the Los Banos area and then take highway 152 west through Reservoir San Luis and Casa De Fruta. From there you can transfer onto 101 and take that from Gilroy straight up to San Francisco (or alternatively you can transfer onto the far superior 85 to 280 route through Campbell, pretty much avoiding the major Peninsula cities, and the accompanying traffic). The question for me in this case is "how well does this thing handle mountains", because if he is going through 152 then he's going to find a rather cramped highway with elements of mountain pass (lots of ups and downs). The rest of the route (Gilroy to SF; Los Banos to LA) is relatively flat, although there is another mountain pass you'd have to cross getting out of the San Fernando Valley and into the Central Valley.
Alternatively you could also take 5 up to Sacramento and from there go down through Oakland, over the bay, and into SF. This would be the equivalent of going 5 to 880 to 580 to 80 (the Bay Bridge) and into SF from there, but that would be far more circuitous, and wouldn't incorporate SJ, which I imagine is an important facet to this operation.
101, while absolutely beautiful, is not really a great route to take from LA to SF. It's good in the LA area, and it's great once you hit Gilroy, but between those two points it's very small and very slow, and, rather than running through the coast (you're actually thinking of Highway 1; easily one of the most gorgeous roads in America, from Santa Barbara to Half Moon Bay), it runs through the mountains, bisecting 5 and 1. The whole point to this thing, I imagine, is being able to achieve a straight-line route without to many twists or inclines, in which case, again, the ideal route would be 5-152-85-280. As to 1, it's gorgeous because it runs along a sheer cliff into the Pacific ocean; there really isn't much room to build anything alongside it. Also it's very twisty.
As to the rail system - there isn't one continuous train that runs from SF to LA right now. If you absolutely want to take a train, you would take Caltrain from SF to Gilroy, then transfer onto a greyhound or Amtrak bus, and ride that down into the San Fernando Valley, at which point you'd get on a light rail or Amtrak train and ride that wherever you want. What I'm saying is that rail really isn't an option for cross-state travel in CA. If you want to go from SF to LA and you don't have your own car, your only feasible options are bus (a greyhound ticket runs to about $40, each way, but takes 10 hours), or plane ($160-300 round trip, and only takes 1 hour).
schlaufuchs
Break My Heart
Totally. Could you imagine being able to go from NYC to London in 3 hours?
Well if we're imagining that, I'd like them to make it frictionless and suck the air out - at 1G, should be able to get the trip down to 30 minutes or so.
warpus
In pork I trust
When I was there on vacation I took a train from downtown LA to downtown San Jose. Are there no trains running between San Jose and SF?
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