End of Empires - N3S III

das said:

North King, I presume we (the Moti) do have horseback riding here by this point, right? You did mention there being horses in the south.

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Yes, you do.

Masada said:

From: The Union of Aya'se etc.
To: Oscadia

The Union will in good spirits to friends extend a gift of 400 gold, with no conditions attached to cover any new fiscal outlays which may have arisen. We wish to reach understandings about mutual trade, and benefit between our nations.

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That would be most appreciated.

From: Union of Aya’se
To: Murk

The Union wishes to formulate an alliance and a trade policy to our nations mutual benefit.

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An alliance is most welcome.

From: Union of Aya’se
To: Kardil

The Union wishes to renew our pre-existing alliance and also wishes to formulate a trade policy to our nation’s mutual benefit. We also wish to get an undertaking that further religious violence in Kardil will be resolved peacefully, or at the minimum with as little damage as possible. The Union views continued religious violence as undesirable and damaging to the stability of the region, and potentially damaging to the Union’s sovereign territory. If your government undertakes not to favour either creed present in your state, then the Union will undertake not to interfere in matters which prey grievously on its heart.

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Kardil shall follow its own path for the moment.

From: Union of Aya’se
To: Ritti

The Union would be interested in fostering improved trade relations with your government.

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Define these.

lord_joakim said:

Actually, I'll leave it here. If I, by any chance, becomes conquered I'll write a complete essay with the mistakes about pre-Jesusian libertarian ideologies, and post it here. So please don't reply to this post, and we'll keep the thread somewhat clean (I won't reply to you at least)

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No, you won't, because this is an NES thread and not your personal venue for venting. I understand that you may be annoyed, but this is not the place. Moreover, a passive-aggressive approach of indirect confrontation -- what seems to be occurring since none of these posts are explicitly directed at me even though all of them concern me -- is not the way to get on my good side.

In short, this isn't the place for this discussion (I WILL reply to it, in the While We Wait thread).

NK stats please!

Am I the only one that doesn't have a problem with a bunch of liberated slaves going off and deciding NOT to have slavery?

Depends on who exactly are you talking about here.

das said:

Depends on who exactly are you talking about here.

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The Faroun, specifically.

Nothing impossible about that, but nothing necessary about it either. Slavery is inevitably quite convenient as far as ancient economy is concerned, and being enslaved in the past is hardly a reason not to enslave others in the present - if anything one might argue that it could at least as easily work in the exact opposite way. Still, as said, nothing explicitly impossible about it.

das said:

Nothing impossible about that, but nothing necessary about it either. Slavery is inevitably quite convenient as far as ancient economy is concerned, and being enslaved in the past is hardly a reason not to enslave others in the present - if anything one might argue that it could at least as easily work in the exact opposite way. Still, as said, nothing explicitly impossible about it.

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Even in the OTL ancient world, there were some areas that didn't practice slavery. Admittedly few were so opposed to the practice as Farou, but at least this divergence makes sense.

It would be more of a problem if slavery wasn't used at all, but to my knowledge it's practiced by the Satar, the Seshweay, Bahra, the Hu'ut, and presumably many others, so the economic system is just as widespread as in OTL.

Vertinari118 said:

NK stats please!

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Sometime this week for sure.

Even in the OTL ancient world, there were some areas that didn't practice slavery. Admittedly few were so opposed to the practice as Farou, but at least this divergence makes sense.

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I would just like to remind you that all of those regions were in their very essence quite different from what we have in Farou and such. Also, there were slaves in India, if that is what you are talking about - they just never amounted to all that much as compared with the Roman Empire, and the fact that the maritime civilisations here don't use slavery is what confuses me - strong arguments could be made for it to be the other way around.

It would be more of a problem if slavery wasn't used at all, but to my knowledge it's practiced by the Satar, the Seshweay, Bahra, the Hu'ut, and presumably many others, so the economic system is just as widespread as in OTL.

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Not sure about the Sesh, but it is abolished by the Trilui as far as I know, and that's a very large and very prosperous region of the kind where slavery would usually tend to thrive.

Ultimately it all seems to indicate a fairly unique and certainly non-Earth-like form of social organisation of the local maritime organisations, which seem to have an unusually strong middle class, no doubt partly due to absence of slavery getting in the way of economic development and polarisation. I'm afraid it still would be a rather precarious balance, though, especially as wealth increases. Balanced societies tend not to last for all that long, certainly not in the ancient world.

das said:

and the fact that the maritime civilisations here don't use slavery is what confuses me - strong arguments could be made for it to be the other way around.

Not sure about the Sesh, but it is abolished by the Trilui as far as I know, and that's a very large and very prosperous region of the kind where slavery would usually tend to thrive.

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Athenian oarsmen were paid; it is much the same way with the Trilui, as I understand it.

Well, duh. Galley slaves are a much later innovation. Naturally, neither the Athenians nor the Trilui would ever trust the foundation of their might to slaves! However, salves were useful - and, at least with the Athenians, used - elsewhere, i.e. mainly in the households and for agricultural work by the rich landowners, who have been able to acquire a lot of lands and now need to cultivate them. It makes sense for rich landowners and advanced private property to emerge in regions with a more advanced economy in general and commerce in particular (they need to buy up lands, and buy slaves as well, after all - slave trade has always been lucrative and that too could not be ignored). Hence ancient slavery usually being most developed and widespread in commercial maritime civilisations, hence the Romans and their slave use record, especially in agriculture. The Trilui look a bit Roman inasmuch as they are an extensive maritime empire, with fairly large inland holdings to boot, though ofcourse they are something else entirely and perhaps indeed closer to a successful Athenian empire (or Minoa or Tartessos a la Xen since there are no other "Greek city-states" to distract it).

Technically, what I said earlier might go the other way around - the unusual strength of the local "middle class" might serve as a limiting factor because use of slaves benefits the rich and hampers the middle. The whole anti-slavery and anti-monarchy historical tradition doubtless helped here as well. Still, not sure how far could one ride out on tradition alone even in the Antiquity.

OOC: *chokes at the memories of Xen's Tartessian Empire*

How prevalent are horses in the north?

Everyone has some access to them.

Wonderful! Great update, NK. I will have some stories up, but not soon. Alas, this week is a lot of work, and I'm a visiting a friend in Peru, too. But I assume updates will be infrequent anyway, so waiting until the weekend should be no big deal.

@das, originally I was going for a Phoenicia style empire, due to being stuck on the edge of the Helsia Peninsula. However once I was able to secure the straits in the west, no one could threaten me within the Lovi sea and was able to turn my attention to the south. I guess you could say I started Phoenicia and evolved into a Roman/Athenian mix

to: Ritti, Rutto, Prokyr
from: Empire of the Trilui
We hear rumors of nations to the north that go by the name of 'Liang', we wish to visit these nations and open trade with them. If one of you guides our traders, ships and diplomats to the 'Liang', we will reward you with 500 Tui.

I would like to play the Ritti nation. Do I need to do anything else (save receive permission from North King) in order to be approved?

To: The Trilui Empire
From: Krato

We are interested in purchasing the islands you hold near Jipha. How much are you willing to sell them for?

OOC: Danny, I don't think you really require approval from the moderator of an NES unless you're taking a major power.

to: Krato
from: Trilui Empire
We will sell them to you for 1000 Tui as we lost many men taking them from the pirates, as long as our trade ships can dock their freely. And our navy can use them when on piracy patrol.

conehead234 said:

to: Krato
from: Trilui Empire
We will sell them to you for 1000 Tui as we lost many men taking them from the pirates, as long as our trade ships can dock their freely. And our navy can use them when on piracy patrol.

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Agreed. We look forward to helping you eliminate the threat of piracy in the area.