Final Frontier Plus

God-Emperor · Feb 10, 2010

It has occurred to me that there are a lot of things in my FF mod-mod, but it was posted pretty much without an indications as to what is in there. (It has been downloaded 14 times so far, so somebody is hopefully giving it a look.) It does include a change log, but that is a complete list of python alterations and XML tag changes and whatnot.

Therefore, so people can get some idea of what might be added to Final Frontier Plus in future versions, I have compiled a more readable list of what is in it. I may have left a thing or two out, but this should cover it pretty well:

Spoiler :

Code:

Finaler Frontier changes, V0.1:

All Python fixes from the official mod thread are in. There have also been
	some additional python tweaks, mostly to help out the AI a little.

Uses the BtS Better AI (BBAI) DLL.

Maximum trade routes per system has been increased to 12.
Maximum experience kept after upgrading increased to 15.
Global warming turned off (every once in a blue moon it would happen in FF,
	to no real effect except wiping out the occasional feature).

Map Features:
	Grav Fields (around black holes): cause 10% damage per turn
	
Victory conditions:
	Influence victory now requires 4 systems at Legendary
		Increased Legendary influence level requirements by about 50%
		Added new Iconic level between Influential and Legendary
			uses original Legendary influence requirement
			has a 90% defense
	Astral Gate Pieces now have a prerequisite project
	
Project:
	Astral Gate Design: available at Ascendancy Theory tech, costs double
		what an astral gate piece costs
	Astral Gate Piece: doubled cost, require Astral Gate Design to build
	
Techs:
	various: adjusted Flavor values
	Vacuum Engineering: requires Synthetic Composites and Galactic
		Epistemology, required to build delta (and omega) squadrons,
		Moonbase, and The Great Rings Park, leads to Mechanized Labor,
		required for Micromanufacturing
	Astral Ascension: now requires Alloy Frame Construction
	Mind-Machine Interface: requires Quantum Control, required to build
		Nanotech Hospital, upon researching this tech every ship
		(current and future) is granted the Neural Interface promotion
		for free
	Quantum Power: requires Mind-Machine Interface, gives +1 health and 
		+1 happy in every system, +1 move for starships, workers build
		improvements +25% faster, required to build Q-Missiles, enables
		Quantum Engines (Speed) promotion, upon researching this tech
		every squadron, starbase, and missile (current and future) is
		granted the Quantum Engines (Range) promotion for free
	Nanocybernetics: requires Quantum Power, +1 health and +1happy in every
		system, upon researching this tech every ship (current and
		future) is granted the Neural Interface II promotion for free
			
Events:
	The Partisans event is in, requiring no specific civic.
	Also in: Breakthrough and Setback
	
Policies (Civics):
	Traditional Military: now gives free support for 2 military units
	Light Ship Doctrine: now gives free support for 4 military units
	Capital Ship Doctrine: +1 happy from Capital Shipyard
	Squadron Doctrine: +1 happy from Squadron Factory, free support for 8
		military units
	
Traits:
	A set of secondary traits has been added. Each is a roughly
	half-strength version of the regular Civ trait.
		Aggressive: +1 prestige to each unit, +25% to build 
			Training Compound and Flight School
		Charismatic: +1 happy to each system, +25% to build
			Interplanetary Beacon
		Creative: +1 influence to each system, +50% to build
			National Epic
		Expansive: +1 health to each system, +25% to build
			Construction Ship and Cryogenic Granary
		Financial; +1 credit to each system
		Imperialistic: +25% to build Colony Ship and Police Agency
		Industrious: +25% to build Factory, Interstellar Exchange,
			Institute for Advanced Research, and Industrial Complex
		Organized: -25% civic upkeep, +25% to build Nutrition Facility
			and Police Agency
		Philosophical: +50% to build University, +25% to build 
			Research Lab
		Protective: light, carrier, and capital ships get free Tracking
			Equipment upgrade, +25% to build Star Fortress
		Spiritual: no anarchy, +25% to build any value shrine

Leaders:
	Each civilization has a second leader. This allows play with more
		players	without duplicate names.
	Each leader has been given a secondary trait, with each of the two
		leaders for each civ getting a different trait.
		
Buildings, changes to existing:
	various: adjusted some of the Flavor values
	Mining Facility: cost decreased slightly (from 45 to 42)
	Spaceport: reduced credits bonus from 25% to 20%, added 20% trade
		route bonus
	Stardock: reduced trade route bonus from 50% to 25%, +1 trade route,
		Red Syndicate build bonus reduced from 100% to 50%
	Police Agency: now also gives +1 espionage point
	Intelligence Center: now also gives +1 espionage point
	
Buildings, new regular:
	Cryogenic Granary: +1 health, store 10% of food on growth
	Flight School: +2 prestige to squadrons
	Moonbase: +1 population limit for planet, extra population does not
		produce food, +2 research points, can only be built on planets
		with a moon
	Nanotech Hospital: +1 influence, +1 health, +1 happy, +5% heal rate
	Nanoextraction Upgrade: +1 production per population
	Extended Habitation System: +1 to planet population limit
	
Buildings, new national wonders:
	Heroic Epic: +100% build for military units, +4 influence
	National Epic: +1 happy in this system, starts golden age, -20% war
		weariness in this system, +8 influence
	Institute for Advanced Research: +100% research, +4 influence
	Interstellar Exchange: +100% credits, +2 influence
	Industrial Complex: +20% production for each of these resources: oil,
		titanium, iron, hydrogen, uranium; +1 influence
	War College: +4 prestige to each unit, +2 influence
	Office of the Ombudsman: reduces maintenance (as Forbidden Palace),
		+1 espionage, +4 influence
		
Buildings, new world wonders:
	Office of the Auditor General: reduces maintenance (as Versailles),
		+4 commerce, +4 influence
	The Great Rings Park: +2 credits, +1 trade route, +4 influence, can only
		be build on a planet that has rings
	Botanical Gardens: no unhealth from population, +1 to population limit
		of planet, +4 influence
	Workers' Memorial: no unhappiness, workers build improvements 10%
		faster,	+4 influence
	Military Science Academy: free Trained Officers promotion, +4 influence
	Universal Foundry: +2 production, +10% production, +4 influence
	Founders Monument: -20% maintenance, starts a golden age, +4 influence
	The Arsenal: +15% production for military units, +2 research, 
		+4 influence
	The Shrine of Knowledge: +1 credit per system with Knowledge,
		spreads Knowledge, +15% research, +4 influence
	The Shrine of Power: +1 credit per system with Power,
		spreads Power, +2 prestige, +4 influence
	The Shrine of Religion: +1 credit per system with Religion,
		spreads religion, +1 happy, +4 influence
	The Shrine of Survival: +1 credit per system with Survival,
		spreads Survival, +1 healthy, +4 influence
	The Shrine of Wealth: +1 credit per system with Wealth,
		spreads Wealth, +15% credits, +4 influence
	
Buildings, unique:
	Technical Institute: Astrotech UB for University, extra +1 production
	Research Institute: Avower UB for Research Lab, extra +1 happy
	Assembly Plant: Halis UB for Manufacturing Plant, extra +5% production
	Star Citadel: New Earth UB for Star Fortress, extra trade route, 
		extra +15% defense, extra 5% reduction in bombard rate
	Space Park: Paradise UB for Spaceport, extra +5% credits, +1 influence
	Starbazaar: Red Syndicate UB for Stardock, extra +2 espionage, 
		+1 influence
	Public Broadcasting System: Brotherhood UB for Commercial Satellites,
		extra +5% research, +1 influence
	Nanoseparation System: Forge UB for Nanoextraction Upgrade, extra 
		+2 credits

Units, changes to existing:
	bugfixes: ships requiring the capital shipyard or squadron factory had
		it specified using the building class value, but the tag
		requires the building type value; all have been fixed
	Scout: +1 move (to 2)
	Delta Scout: added free improved sensors
	Omega Scout: +1 move (to 3), +1 strength (to 5), 1 first strike
	Invasion Ships (all 3 generations): cause some collateral damage
		(25% rating) to a maximum of 5 units (they can now use the
		collateral damage increasing promotions)
	Omega Battleship: strength increased to 54 (it is now also +50% over
		the previous generation, like all other generational increases)
	Anti-Ship Missile: changed prereq tech to Military Academies
	Starbases (all 3 generations): given 20% intercept chance
	Delta Fighter Squadron: given 5% evade chance
	Omega Fighter Squadron: given 10% evade chance

Units, new:
	Assault Missile: weaker than A-S Missile (2 vs. 3) but gets +100%
		bonus when attacking star systems and causes a small amount of
		collateral damage to up to 2 units
	Delta Assault Missile: ditto, but strength is 3 (vs. 5)
	Omega Assault Missile: ditto, but strength is 5 (vs. 7)
	Q-Missile: upgrade for both types of Omega Missile (longer range,
		stronger, also does some collateral damage to up to 3 units),
		requires new Quantum Power tech
	Q-Squadron: upgrade for all Omega Squadrons, a bit better than the
		fighter as a fighter and the bomber as a bomber, requires both
		Quantum Power and Galactic Domination

Units, unique:
	Recon Ship (3 generations): Avower UU for Scouts; can attack, a little
		stronger, small chance to intercept, small chance to withdraw,
		receive free unique promotions for extra sensor range instead
		of the standard promotions which allows it to also take the
		standard sensor range increasing promotions
	Long-Range Bomber Squadrons (4 generations): Paradise UU for Bomber
		Squadrons (all 3 generations) and Q-Squadron; +1 range, 
		+5 increase to both collateral damage rating and collateral
		damage limit
	Missile Frigate (3 generations): Astrotech UU for Destroyer; reduced
		strength (5/8/12 vs. 6/9/14) can carry missiles (2 for omega
		1 for others), +5% intercept chance (35/40/45 vs 30/35/40),
		reduced cost from 50/100/200 to 45/90/180
	Rapid Construction Ship: Red Syndicate UU for Construction Ship;
		+1 move (to 3), +10% work rate
	Battlecarrier (3 generations): New Earth UU for Battleships; -2/3/4
		strength (22/33/50 vs. 24/36/54), can carry a squadron (regular,
		delta) or 2 (omega).
	Battlecruiser (3 generations): Brotherhood UU for Cruisers; 
		+20% strength (12/18/27 vs. 10/15/22), bombard rate increased
		from 10 to 15
	Planetary Siege Unit (3 generations): Forge UU for Invasion Ship; 
		+1 first strike chance, increased collateral damage amount and
		limit and max ships affected, +10% bombard rate (from 0)
	System Defense Boat (3 generations): Halis UU for Planetary Defense
		Ship; increased strength (5/7/11 vs. 4/6/9), 1 first strike
		chance for regular and delta, 1 first strike for omega,
		speed of omega reduced from 2 to 1
		
Promotions, changes to existing:
	PROMOTION_SCOUT_III_SIGHT (the second of 2 that are called
		"+1 Visibility Range" in the Civilopedia): changed from
		+2 visibility to +1 (this is used by the Delta and Omega Recon
		Ship UUs)
	Advanced Weapons: requires Long-Range Weapons
	Upgraded Computers: +15% collateral (was +10), +5% withdraw (was 0)
	Improved Computers: +15% collateral (was +10), +5% withdraw (was 0)
	Advanced Computers: +15% collateral (was +10), +5% withdraw (was 0),
		requires Intuitive Computers
	Upgraded Shields: added tech prereq of Shield Generation
	Improved Sensors: added tech prereq of Radar Polymers
	Upgraded Stealth: added a first strike chance
	Improved Stealth: added a first strike chance 
	Advanced Stealth: added a first strike chance
	Trained Officers: added a first strike chance
	Squadron Tactics: added tech prereq of Survivalism
	Capital Ship Tactics: added tech prereq of Shock and Awe
	Carrier Ship Tactics: added tech prereq of Squadron Focus
	Interception I: added tech prereq of Light Craft Manufacturing; now also
		available to starbases
	Interception II: added tech prereq of Squadron Focus; now also
		available to starbases
	Advanced Bridge: requirement changed to Improved Sensors or 
		Improved Computers
	Ace: requirement changed to Improved Weapons or Advanced Computers

Promotions, new:
	Neural Interface: +5% strength, 1 first strike chance - given for free
		when Mind-Machine Interface is researched; applies to Recon
		Ships, Squadrons, Light Ships, Carrier Ships, Capitol Ships, and
		Starbases
	Neural Interface II: +5% strength, 1 first strike chance - given for
		free when Nanocybernetics is researched; applies to Recon Ships,
		Squadrons, Light Ships, Carrier Ships, Capitol Ships, and
		Starbases
	Quantum Engines (Range): +1 range, +10% strength  - given for free when
		Quantum Power is researched; applies to Squadrons, Starbases,
		and Missiles
	Quantum Engines (Speed): +1 move, +10% strength, requires Quantum
		Engines tech; applies to Recon Ships, Light Ships, Carrier
		Ships, and Capitol Ships
	Fusion Weapons: +15% strength, requires Advanced Weapons promotion,
		requires Fusion Weapons tech; applies to Light Ships, Carrier
		Ships, Capitol Ships, and Starbases

Note that there is some additional art for the new stuff, but not all of it has new art. Unique units are identical to the regular units they replace.

PieceOfMind · Feb 10, 2010

Oh, my mistake on the +20% influence buildings existing. :lol:

Really though, the effect of building more than 1 interplanetary beacon is not to be ignored.

I am going to do a bit of math below...

Spoiler :

With the increased pirate activity in the latest version I can appreciate the player has less time to build culture buildings early. So far in my test games I haven't seen other AIs to be major threats.

My current test games are at Monarch level.

ShiroBlade · Feb 10, 2010

God-Emperor, I tried your mod. It looks pretty good. Although, just like the original FF it starts to slow down once you get going.

I've only tried playing as New Earth with their Battlecarriers, and while I'm a bit disappointed that they only get to carry 2 squadrons and don't get access to the Storage Bay upgrades, but so far it is a lot of fun.

PieceOfMind · Feb 11, 2010

More feedback for FFP v1.2

Spoiler :

EDIT
Regarding pirates, in the last game I noticed the yellow civ (Halis, forget its name) lost 3 cities to barbs over the course of the game. Are the AI having trouble with pirates or was this a fluke?

TC01 · Feb 11, 2010

In numbering the influence levels, when you click on a vacant star system they are 0, 1, 2. In the city screen, you've labelled them 1,2,3. This is not a big deal of course.

I'll change that in the next version.

Request:
Under civilopedia, under the entry for each religion, it would be nice to be told the religion is required for its special building. At the moment, you have to go to the Buildings section and figure out which buildings go with which religion, assuming you even know religions (Values) have special buildings.

I'll add this to the next version as well.

Unusual:
When I moved a unit onto a worhmole, it went through to the other side but upon arrival it immediately had itself pathed to the centre of the first hole. Is this the normal behaviour? I had to go and cancel the units orders manually.

I chucked a unit onto a black hole. As it was getting pulled in, the report given each turn was simply "Black Hole Gravity Field". Then when it died the report was "Black Hole".
I thought maybe it could say instead something like "Your <unit> has been pulled towards a black hole" and "Your unit has been lost beyond the event horizon of a black hole." (or something similarly nerdy!)

As for the former- is this using regular wormholes or delayed wormholes?

As for the latter, it used to say this, and will say it again when I merge in an updated version of Kiwikaz's feature effects source code. Maybe it will also fix the former issue.

I noticed a pirate planetary defense ship (I'll have to call these PDS from now on) move onto a radiation cloud as I stalked it with my destroyer. Are pirates meant to do that?

Probably not. I'll look at the AI and try to stop it from ever moving onto dangerous features.

I think calling it the isolation era at the start is really good. As I played the game this time (Huge with all civs) on WormholeSpiralGalaxy I didn't meet anyone for ages and it was largely exploring around the starting starsystem, keeping my scouts clear of barbs and choosing my battles with barbs.

Would it be better if Scouts had 2 movement, like they do in God-Emperor's version, plus several Part Upgrades available which increase their speed or their visibility?

Or, we could add more civs. I'm in favor of this, but I would ideally want some kind of background and special abilities worked out ahead of time. Would they be more former colonies of Earth that survived it's destruction? Would they be "break-away" civs from the surviving colonies (like the human factions from SMAX)? Or would they be aliens and thus play very differently.

I highly recommend merging in the "Sentry while healing" from Pep's unit orders modcomp. There have been so many times I have parked a destroyer or scout out in space to heal for a few turns, only to have a pirate wander nearby and kill it without me realising til it's too late.

I'll do that in the next version.

Bug related to the one God Emperor noted:
The water resource still shows up like an aluminium can in the city screen.

Unlike the Oil, I did this on purpose because I didn't want to edit Gamefonts.tga. Unfortunately, Jon Shafer (or someone else at Firaxis) removed all the resource icons not used in Final Frontier. So I was expecting the Oil icon to still be there...

Since now I'll have to edit it anyway to add back, I'll add the new water icon to Gamefonts.tga.

I tried attacking a pirate that was on a radiation cloud with my destroyer but the destroyer refused to move onto the tile. Is it always the case that a unit can't move onto radiation with its last movement point? If so, how come pirates can? My guess is that the path-finding code which avoids dangerous terrain avoids it even if it's the destination.

This is true in Final Frontier vanilla as well. It's the path finding code. I suspect it's been set up this way to stop the AI from moving onto dangerous terrain- or, at least, ending their movement on it. But if a ship with 2 movement moves onto a Radiation Cloud for movement 1 and then it's turn is ended, it will still take damage.

Does the light ship doctrine actually work? When I switched to the civic I didn't notice any indication of +10% in the city screen. Does it work in a more invisible way? I haven't tried the other civics in the same category.

It should be working... anyone else notice it's not working?

Regarding pirates, in the last game I noticed the yellow civ (Halis, forget its name) lost 3 cities to barbs over the course of the game. Are the AI having trouble with pirates or was this a fluke?

Probably due to unbalanced pirate spawning in this version.

God-Emperor · Feb 11, 2010

I've been bugged by control-A not forcing queued up actions to happen to. I don't know why it doesn't work. The base control for this is via CONTROL_AUTOMOVES in CIV4ControlInfos.xml, which is present in the Final Frontier file. I have not checked the SDK to see how this actually works - there may be some other setting somewhere that I have not noticed. The problem could be in the python screen code as well.

I don't think the AI controlled units should be absolutely forbidden to move onto damaging terrain. There are situations where it makes sense - like when their PDS is trying to run away from the player's destroyer. Taking 25% damage from a radiation cloud is better than taking 100% damage from the destroyer. It can also be good to explore what's on the other side of a radiation field. That said, the AI is way too willing to move its ships onto bad terrain. In a recent game I saw one of the AIs move a stack of two delta battleships into a grav field. Since they are speed 1 ships, it is not possible for them to move out - they were stuck there for the rest of their miserable lives (this was in my mod, which adds a 10% damage value to grav fields just because this happens: it insures that the speed 1 ships get wiped out in not more than 10 turns, instead of lingering there for the rest of the game increasing the AI's unit support costs - although in my mod they could theoretically eventually be bumped up to speed 2 via the +1 move from the Quantum Power tech, just wiping them out seemed like a good plan). In one of my test games for FF+ I saw the AI move an already damaged ship (damaged 25% or more, probably from moving through a radiation cloud) into the 75% damage area around a supernova, wiping it out.

The AI is also strangely reluctant to let its ships heal when it should. The ones out wandering around exploring rarely, if ever, do so. If it moves through a radiation field for 2 turns, it does not seem to stop to heal the 50% damage it took.

God-Emperor · Feb 11, 2010

ShiroBlade said:
God-Emperor, I tried your mod. It looks pretty good. Although, just like the original FF it starts to slow down once you get going.

I've only tried playing as New Earth with their Battlecarriers, and while I'm a bit disappointed that they only get to carry 2 squadrons and don't get access to the Storage Bay upgrades, but so far it is a lot of fun.

The strange way the FF and my mod seem to slow down after you get into the mid-game phase is a known problem (to me, at least). It is one of the reasons why I had never released my mod for public consumption before now. It is hard to say why it seems that way. My main thought is that there is just less to manage than in regular Civ. The lower number of different resources and late connecting of trade routes makes trade relations a lot simpler (there frequently are none at all). Diplomacy in general also seems to be a little simpler so you don't spend as much time with that. There are no specialists to fiddle with. There are no great people to decide what to do with. Thee are no spies to run missions with. There is, in general, just less to do. It only really becomes noticeable once all the star systems are settled and have some basic infrastructure set up. After that, it is a relatively straightforward race to try to get to a victory condition. The war-mongers among us might not notice it as much since they still have enemies to crush.

FF+ will need to find some way to overcome this problem. Adding in some wonders and some more late game buildings seems to me to have helped a little, but not much.

God-Emperor · Feb 11, 2010

By the way, I finished the test game I was running. Amusingly enough, given the recent discussion, I won a cultural type victory almost by accident. I had researched the tech to build the astral gate parts, but I realized that I was going to win in about 10 turns due to culture so I didn't bother building any. The amazing part is that I never once run the culture slider at anything over 0. All culture was purely from buildings. I will note that when I noticed I was doing much better than the AI in culture back a hundred turns or so before the end I did build an extra interplanetary beacon in the top cities (so they had at least 2, I think one or two of them may have had 3). I also founded two values (power and religion) and built a fairly large number of the related buildings. But this does illustrate that the inherited number of culture points to get to Legendary is definitely too low by a rather large amount.

My 50% increase is almost certainly too little, but I still think a 200% increase is too much. A 100% increase is probably a good number to try.

AT the end of my test game I hit a bug. Sadly, i did not keep the log. It was a python error that happened when it was trying to display the final screen that lists all the scores involving a "none type object". This resulted in the list being empty after clicking past the error dialog.

Aha! Going to the Hall of Fame from the start screen causes the problem to happen (and shows and empty list):

Code:

Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "CvScreensInterface", line 83, in showHallOfFame

  File "CvHallOfFameScreen", line 222, in interfaceScreen

  File "CvHallOfFameScreen", line 281, in drawContents

AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'getDescription'
ERR: Python function showHallOfFame failed, module CvScreensInterface

Kiwikaz · Feb 11, 2010

TC01 said:
Unusual:
When I moved a unit onto a worhmole, it went through to the other side but upon arrival it immediately had itself pathed to the centre of the first hole. Is this the normal behaviour? I had to go and cancel the units orders manually.

I chucked a unit onto a black hole. As it was getting pulled in, the report given each turn was simply "Black Hole Gravity Field". Then when it died the report was "Black Hole".
I thought maybe it could say instead something like "Your <unit> has been pulled towards a black hole" and "Your unit has been lost beyond the event horizon of a black hole." (or something similarly nerdy!)

Click to expand...

As for the former- is this using regular wormholes or delayed wormholes?

As for the latter, it used to say this, and will say it again when I merge in an updated version of Kiwikaz's feature effects source code. Maybe it will also fix the former issue.

The bug happens with regular wormholes, unfortunately my new code won't fix it. One way around this would be clearing the mission queue after moving the unit to new location.

The newer feature effect code does display message like PieceOfMind described (it uses original Pedia text with <unit>).

PieceOfMind · Feb 11, 2010

TC01 said:
As for the former- is this using regular wormholes or delayed wormholes?

I guess it's been answered now but just to confirm, regular wormholes.

Would it be better if Scouts had 2 movement, like they do in God-Emperor's version, plus several Part Upgrades available which increase their speed or their visibility?

IMO don't give scouts 2 movement. They are already good enough because they can pop wreckage without fearing pirates and it is a natural drawback that they might not be able to outrun a pirate destroyer. If scouts had 2 moves I wouldn't bother building destroyers as early. The scouts also have the extra visibility already so with 2 moves they would pretty much never die. You can always spot a 2-move barb 3 tiles away so you have a good chance to escape, even with only 1 move per turn.

Or, we could add more civs. I'm in favor of this, but I would ideally want some kind of background and special abilities worked out ahead of time. Would they be more former colonies of Earth that survived it's destruction? Would they be "break-away" civs from the surviving colonies (like the human factions from SMAX)? Or would they be aliens and thus play very differently.

As always, in my opinion, new civs are not necessary yet. I agree you'd need to work out some background story (something I reckon Jon Shafer might help you out with :hmm:

) if you were to include more. A huge maps accomodates the current 8 civs perfectly IMO.

PieceOfMind said:
PieceOfMind said:

I highly recommend merging in the "Sentry while healing" from Pep's unit orders modcomp. There have been so many times I have parked a destroyer or scout out in space to heal for a few turns, only to have a pirate wander nearby and kill it without me realising til it's too late.

Click to expand...

I'll do that in the next version.

Awesome!

Unlike the Oil, I did this on purpose because I didn't want to edit Gamefonts.tga. Unfortunately, Jon Shafer (or someone else at Firaxis) removed all the resource icons not used in Final Frontier. So I was expecting the Oil icon to still be there...

Since now I'll have to edit it anyway to add back, I'll add the new water icon to Gamefonts.tga.

Ok.

This is true in Final Frontier vanilla as well. It's the path finding code. I suspect it's been set up this way to stop the AI from moving onto dangerous terrain- or, at least, ending their movement on it. But if a ship with 2 movement moves onto a Radiation Cloud for movement 1 and then it's turn is ended, it will st

not sure how that sentence was gonna finish :confused:

Probably due to unbalanced pirate spawning in this version.

This would take more playtesting I suppose but I was definitely enjoying the amount of pirates in the latest version. It keeps me honest so I don't just send out unescorted colony ships and construction ships into the void.

In an ideal world, improving the AI to help it avoid having cities captured should be the goal IMO. It might be ok if an AI's roads get pillaged all around its city but it should at least be able to build enough PDSs to ensure it doesn't lose a city. I would recommend an AI always trying to keep at least 2 PDSs in each city.

God-Emperor · Feb 11, 2010

PieceOfMind said:
IMO don't give scouts 2 movement. They are already good enough because they can pop wreckage without fearing pirates and it is a natural drawback that they might not be able to outrun a pirate destroyer. If scouts had 2 moves I wouldn't bother building destroyers as early. The scouts also have the extra visibility already so with 2 moves they would pretty much never die. You can always spot a 2-move barb 3 tiles away so you have a good chance to escape, even with only 1 move per turn.

I, pretty obviously, disagree. As it is, a destroyer is a better scout than a scout, with the exception of getting bad results from wreckage. A destroyer currently reveals more new tiles per turn than a scout does - moving horizontally or vertically a scout reveals 7 new tiles, a destroyer reveals 5 per move for a total of 10. It seems to me that a ship called a scout ought to be better at scouting than a destroyer. Even with the same speed as the pirate destroyers it can be hard to avoid them since asteroids and nebula block your view. You can move onto an asteroid tile only to discover a pirate destroyer 1 or 2 units away on the far side, or when moving around the end of a nebula - I probably loose on average at least 1 scout per game that way. In my test game of FF+ v1.2 I didn't bother building scouts after the first 2 (I got a 3rd from wreckage) until I could build delta scouts at which time I built 1 more (which are speed 2, and I built it in a system that gave enough xp to get it the upgraded engines to make it speed 3) - all 4 of those scouts, including the fast delta scout, were killed by pirates (the fast one was trapped between the edge of the map, two pirate destroyers, and the territory of someone I was at war with). I never did reveal the entire map.

In an ideal world, improving the AI to help it avoid having cities captured should be the goal IMO. It might be ok if an AI's roads get pillaged all around its city but it should at least be able to build enough PDSs to ensure it doesn't lose a city. I would recommend an AI always trying to keep at least 2 PDSs in each city.

The AI makes some strange choices for founding colonies. I have seen it found a colony defended by nothing but a strength 3 Recon Ship (Avowers UU for scout in my mod) - there is literally no pirate ship that doesn't have a good chance to capture that system since the weakest attacker is the str 4 PDS. More frequently that that, it founds them with only a destroyer as a defender until it builds a PDS in that system, not sending one from an established system. One pirate Invasion Ship and the colony is gone with a very high probability (str 12 attacker vs. str 6 + possibly a promotion or two and maybe 25% for fortification defender = dead defender more often than not), or a Pirate Destroyer with a near 50% chance. This is aggravated in the current FF+ v1.2 by the larger number of pirates in the early game. In my test game, once I saw the replay at the end I discovered that one system was very busy, I think it went: colonized (New Earth), razed by the pirates, recolonized (NE), captured by the pirates, captured by a different AI (Halis), recaptured by the pirates, and then captured by yet another AI (Syndicate). I think there was one other system that the pirates captured or razed fairly early as well, but it may have been 2 others. This was on a standard size wormholes map.

PieceOfMind · Feb 11, 2010

Scouts are also half as expensive as destroyers.

Also remember that scouts can basically fogbust with their big vision range. Now there are so many pirates in the game this could be a big advantage.

I find the 3 vision range on scouts is almost always enough to avoid pirate destroyers. It is true sometimes you have almost no choice but to move near an asteroid where your vision is blocked, only to find a destroyer, but it's a risk the player takes voluntarily most of the time. I find it interesting having to pick which tiles to move my scout to and will often not take the fastest route somewhere because I know a pirate could be lurking along the way.

In BtS I often move my scout 1 tile at a time, reserving its 2nd move for if I end up beside a barb or animal on the first move. Moving it through the forest is riskier business so I try to get the Woodsman 2 promotion from wins against animals. With 2 move scouts at the start of the game in FF, I think it would be ridiculously easy to explore all of space without losing a single scout. You might lose 1 in 100. :lol:

Scouts might sometimes get gobbled up by the pirate destroyers but so do destroyers! Given that scouts get the better huts, I've often considered sending out destroyers and scouts in groups. If I am having to pop wreckages with destroyers then I try to have another destroyer nearby to help kill off pirates if they spawn.

Using destroyers to pop huts is usually painful IMO compared to using scouts. This is my observation for Monarch level but pirates seemed to spawn from huts very very often. Enough to make me prefer not to pop huts with destroyers. The huts that are actually defended by a fortified unit are even riskier to pop with a destoyer - 1) because you might lose the destroyer in the first attack and 2) because even if you win you're very likely to pop a pirate who'll almost certainly succeed in killing your even slightly damaged destroyer.

The other reason I don't think starting scouts should have two moves is that they will get the universe explored a lot faster. You will be able to find much more planets etc. before the pirates even become a problem. Not to mention you'll be able to pop a lot more huts before they start getting defended by pirates too. These things will give the human player a huge benefit but comparatively I think the AI will not get the same out of it.

Besides, it's called the Isolation era. If you could meet other civs much more quickly and easily with the 2-move scouts I think the name wouldn't be as fitting.

------------
EDIT
(I'm writing an edit to avoid double posting)

Regarding pirates capturing AI star systems, the other obvious way you could solve it is by making pirates less compelled to assault cities. I think it is realistic to have them roaming around space picking off scouts

p) and other lonely ships, even guarding wreckage, but capturing whole star systems from organised civlisations?

Because of the way FF has been built with PDSs and invasion ships having very high situational modifiers, I would not be surprised if the AI has more trouble understanding just how situational those bonuses are and how to best use them. A 6 :strength:

destroyer is pathetic defending a star system (something I learned quickly when defending against invasion ships) but I highly doubt the AI fully appreciates this. This agrees with your observations God-Emperor.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that these situational bonuses on the PDS and inv ship are so high - it makes the mod a bit different from BtS. But I do think the AI from BtS would have trouble if similar units existed in BtS. It would be like having City Garrison 8 archers and City Raider 8 swordsmen in play. Their utility is much harder to judge for an AI because their use in battle is much more specialised.

This is why I think coding the AI to give high priority to defending its starsystems with PDSs should be high on the todo list for this mod, assuming pirate activity stays at or near its current levels.

I have not yet seen much by way of AIs attacking cities but I would hope they understand to use invasion ships.

ShiroBlade · Feb 12, 2010

I don't think the AI has ever understood the value of the Invasion Ship. In regular FF, it seemed rather common for the AI to build Invasion ships to defend their systems and attack with the PDSs. In FF+, I haven't seen many Invasion Ships except with the Barbarians and those are normally being picked off by the PDSs defending my systems.

TC01 · Feb 12, 2010

Well... Isolation era is actually intended as a reference to that Earth, which all the colonies are dependent on, not that you're supposed to be isolated from the other civs.

As for the AI... yes, it factors in combat strength more than city defense bonuses- but it probably also doesn't help that the PDS ships have all these unit AIs:

Code:

			<UnitAIs>
				<UnitAI>
					<UnitAIType>UNITAI_ATTACK</UnitAIType>
					<bUnitAI>1</bUnitAI>
				</UnitAI>
				<UnitAI>
					<UnitAIType>UNITAI_RESERVE</UnitAIType>
					<bUnitAI>1</bUnitAI>
				</UnitAI>
				<UnitAI>
					<UnitAIType>UNITAI_COUNTER</UnitAIType>
					<bUnitAI>1</bUnitAI>
				</UnitAI>
				<UnitAI>
					<UnitAIType>UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE</UnitAIType>
					<bUnitAI>1</bUnitAI>
				</UnitAI>
			</UnitAIs>

JimW · Feb 12, 2010

I have had zero luck getting a mod to work. I think I followed the instructions correctly:

Went into the BtS/mod folder and copied the FF folder.
Renamed it to "Final Frontier Plus"
Downloaded the mod and copied it into the FF+ folder.
Ran from the shortcut in the FF+ folder.

Still no overflow production and planted a Stealth ship to check an opponent's start...no activity until Influence expansion. I am also getting an error that will not allow any saves to the game either by me or the AI's autosave.

I'm at a loss. After this process should I have both a FF folder AND a FF+ folder?

TC01 · Feb 12, 2010

JimW said:
I have had zero luck getting a mod to work. I think I followed the instructions correctly:

Went into the BtS/mod folder and copied the FF folder.
Renamed it to "Final Frontier Plus"
Downloaded the mod and copied it into the FF+ folder.
Ran from the shortcut in the FF+ folder.

Still no overflow production and planted a Stealth ship to check an opponent's start...no activity until Influence expansion. I am also getting an error that will not allow any saves to the game either by me or the AI's autosave.

I'm at a loss. After this process should I have both a FF folder AND a FF+ folder?

Yes, you should.

But you say you "Downloaded the mod and copied it into the FF+ folder." You should have copied the mod into the Beyond the Sword\Mods folder. There should not be a Final Frontier Plus folder inside the Final Frontier Plus folder.

PieceOfMind · Feb 12, 2010

TC01 said:
Well... Isolation era is actually intended as a reference to that Earth, which all the colonies are dependent on, not that you're supposed to be isolated from the other civs.

Didn't know that. I guess that makes more sense then.

Code:
As for the AI... yes, it factors in combat strength more than city defense bonuses- but it probably also doesn't help that the PDS ships have all these unit AIs:

Code:

<UnitAIs> <UnitAI> <UnitAIType>UNITAI_ATTACK</UnitAIType> <bUnitAI>1</bUnitAI> </UnitAI> <UnitAI> <UnitAIType>UNITAI_RESERVE</UnitAIType> <bUnitAI>1</bUnitAI> </UnitAI> <UnitAI> <UnitAIType>UNITAI_COUNTER</UnitAIType> <bUnitAI>1</bUnitAI> </UnitAI> <UnitAI> <UnitAIType>UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE</UnitAIType> <bUnitAI>1</bUnitAI> </UnitAI> </UnitAIs>

Yep that'd be a problem. Looks like you or GE have some work to do, eh?

EDIT
By the way, AI changes like the ones needed here might fall under the scope of the Better AI project so you might be lucky if you kindly ask jdog to look into it.

JimW · Feb 12, 2010

TC01 said:
Yes, you should.

But you say you "Downloaded the mod and copied it into the FF+ folder." You should have copied the mod into the Beyond the Sword\Mods folder. There should not be a Final Frontier Plus folder inside the Final Frontier Plus folder.

Ok, fixed and I'm almost there.

The AI is now allocating a planet to the home systems and the civs are building/growing.

However

When I move my PDS on turn 1 to explore, it teleports to another system no matter which tile I move it to. On one retry it moved my PDS onto Lukas' home planet and stacked my PDS with his...

anders0304 · Feb 13, 2010

SharpieMarks said:
I am having problems with this mod lasting more than 10 turns. It randomly crashes on me without any apparent reason. I'd start a custom game with various settings changed between games and it would still crash shortly into it.

I have the exact same problem, I too am using a 64 bit OS, namely Windows 7.
Also it crashes the very instant I try to move a unit.

This is really annoying since it looks like a great mod.

Kiwikaz · Feb 13, 2010

JimW said:
When I move my PDS on turn 1 to explore, it teleports to another system no matter which tile I move it to. On one retry it moved my PDS onto Lukas' home planet and stacked my PDS with his...

anders0304 said:
Originally Posted by SharpieMarks View Post
I am having problems with this mod lasting more than 10 turns. It randomly crashes on me without any apparent reason. I'd start a custom game with various settings changed between games and it would still crash shortly into it.

Click to expand...

I have the exact same problem, I too am using a 64 bit OS, namely Windows 7.
Also it crashes the very instant I try to move a unit.

This is really annoying since it looks like a great mod.

Dunno why JimW's unit teleports, but all those bugs are the same problem (the unit try's to to find a wormhole for NO_FEATURE).
Only solution is to wait for version 1.3 or build your own dll

Final Frontier Plus

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Drill IV Defender

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Drill IV Defender

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