Civ 5 digital deluxe coming exclusively to Steam! Steamworks confirmed!

I was mostly replying to the somewhat wilder post on malware above. My definition was deliberately very broad. But to be clear, it is highly questionable if i install program A, program B is installed as a component/helper of program A, and program B runs at times other than when program A is running, or i explicitly run program B. Unless I gave my informed consent to that behavior by program B, then yes that sort of behavior makes program B malware.

Presuming I buy and install civilization 5, and at some point in the install process it requires me to install steam, and at no point informs me that steam will load itself on startup, yes it is clearly behaving as malware. If, as is common practice by software companies, that information is shown on screen somewhere, perhaps with the option to opt out preselected, its on dubious ground. If i get a popup suggesting i turn it on as part of the install process with the option to say no, then no it isn't malware because I have given permission.

The issue is the software being installed/running without informed consent. It doesn't matter so much what it does if its installed deceptively or runs without permission it is malware.

Two words for ya mate. :)

Windows Update

Runs just like you describe, but is it Malware? The definition of Malware is unfortunately flawed. ;)
 
Steam subscriber agreement:

7. USER GENERATED INFORMATION

"User Generated Information" means any information made available to other users through your use of multi-user features of Steam or to Valve through your use of the Steam Software. User Generated Information may include, but is not limited to, chat, forum posts, screen names, game selections, player performances, usage data, suggestions about Valve products or services, and error notifications. Subject to the Valve privacy policy referenced in Section 1 above, as applicable, you expressly grant Valve the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind.

Hmm, so you will allow steam to scan your Computer for any information they want.
And you will allow them to distribute the information to whomever they want.
And they do not need to ask you for this information.

I think, steam is not only malware - it is a trojan! But a legal one, because the customer legalize it himself :D

Sorry, I will not install such a software on my computer.

Good bye, Civ 5. I was a big fan of this series, but now it's over. I'm :sad:
 
You can remove the application when ever you want and it will be like it never existed and you have a very good incentive to try it. ... There is no potential permanent damage here as there are in your stupid examples.

ignoring the fact that you have to accept the privacy policy and the subscribers agreement with all the rights you hand over to valve. Depending on the individual point of view this can include potentiel permanent damage

It is entirely your own decision if you want to do something illogical, but the point you are missing that if you decide to refuse to use the software no matter what - nobody cares. It has nothing to do with anyone else.

the same can be said about your preference of steam. Why should anybody care about this opinion.

The reason for this discussion is the decision of the publisher, who affect us a potential customer of the oncoming civ. And because i´m touched i allow me - and you have the right to ignore it - post my opinion about this step. It´s now the time to critize this step, if the game is sold it would be a bit late, or?

If someone says "Is steam any good?" the only true answer you can give is "I don't know".

is steam good - perhaps, it clearly depends on your personal preference and point of view of certain things. At least steam is no god. But with bundling (and forcing to register can be seen as this) steam with civ5 you make two decision if you buy the game. You say you can accept steam and you like civ5. The opposite oppinion here is, i like civ5, but do not want to be forced to use steam (not depending on the degree).

So this is not really a "no steam" discussion here, it´s more a "no forced steam" discussion. If it´s optional you as steam user would be lucky and i as no steam user too.
 
Steam subscriber agreement:



Hmm, so you will allow steam to scan your Computer for any information they want.
And you will allow them to distribute the information to whomever they want.
And they do not need to ask you for this information.

I think, steam is not only malware - it is a trojan! But a legal one, because the customer legalize it himself :D

Sorry, I will not install such a software on my computer.

Good bye, Civ 5. I was a big fan of this series, but now it's over. I'm :sad:


Except you're wrong. You completely missed the point of the passage.

The only thing this states is that Steam has the right to look at your account information (Which is incredibly reasonable - you can't exactly blame them for wanting to record what games you purchased with Steam), and that anything you put in your account information or put on Steam can be used by Steam without your permission (again, reasonable, especially with the millions of users on Steam). There's nothing in there about anything other than account information.
 
I hope everyone understands that installing anything on your computer generally means you are agreeing to a ton of legal crap. The only time Steam collects your hardware information is when you PARTICIPATE in the survey it sends out quarterly. Everything else is private. Nobody cares about your information, least of all, Valve. Trust me on this. Oh wait, you can't.

It really is too funny that people cannot get over this. And its only 3 days since the announcement. This isnt anything like, Civ5 will be released only on the PS3. We all have PC's here, and apparently everyone here is probably a fan of the game. The fact that you're going to let some unjustified bias or misconception or unwillingness to try something new stop you from enjoying something you're extremely passionate about (see fanaticism), is why everyone is arguing over this topic. It blows people's minds both ways.
 
Steam subscriber agreement:



Hmm, so you will allow steam to scan your Computer for any information they want.
And you will allow them to distribute the information to whomever they want.
And they do not need to ask you for this information.

I think, steam is not only malware - it is a trojan! But a legal one, because the customer legalize it himself :D

Sorry, I will not install such a software on my computer.

Good bye, Civ 5. I was a big fan of this series, but now it's over. I'm :sad:

...Seriously. That's the dumbest thing I've heard today.
Steam isn't a trojan, it's not malware. It doesn't infect your PC in any way, shape, or form. It's easy to remove. It doesn't give away any info not related to Steam.
Due to this, saying Steam is a trojan/malware is as ******ed as saying itunes or firefox is a virus.
Think before you speak.
 
It really is too funny that people cannot get over this. And its only 3 days since the announcement. This isnt anything like, Civ5 will be released only on the PS3. We all have PC's here, and apparently everyone here is probably a fan of the game. The fact that you're going to let some unjustified bias or misconception or unwillingness to try something new stop you from enjoying something you're extremely passionate about (see fanaticism), is why everyone is arguing over this topic. It blows people's minds both ways.

That is what i was trying to say,

but worded much better...
 
Someone an idea why they use Steam DRM? We all know that a non-Steam version will be released on the Release day, maybe earlier. The "pirates" get a better version for free...
 
Someone an idea why they use Steam DRM? We all know that a non-Steam version will be released on the Release day, maybe earlier. The "pirates" get a better version for free...

That is also unfortunately true. I am personally in favor of more clever ways of DRM (such as removing content at random intervals for non registered games) rather than the constantly checking with big-brother approach...
 
I hope everyone understands that installing anything on your computer generally means you are agreeing to a ton of legal crap. The only time Steam collects your hardware information is when you PARTICIPATE in the survey it sends out quarterly. Everything else is private. Nobody cares about your information, least of all, Valve. Trust me on this. Oh wait, you can't.

It really is too funny that people cannot get over this. And its only 3 days since the announcement. This isnt anything like, Civ5 will be released only on the PS3. We all have PC's here, and apparently everyone here is probably a fan of the game. The fact that you're going to let some unjustified bias or misconception or unwillingness to try something new stop you from enjoying something you're extremely passionate about (see fanaticism), is why everyone is arguing over this topic. It blows people's minds both ways.

Ive used steam I dont like it, it should really be an optional thing. I would be quite happy for people to enjoy the multiplayer benefits of steam, I just dont like the program, I never have since it started. I don't think I should have to use steam, so I probably wont buy it straight away.

If it gets released on gamers gate like a normal civ, I will buy it as soon as it is avalaible.
 
Someone an idea why they use Steam DRM? We all know that a non-Steam version will be released on the Release day, maybe earlier. The "pirates" get a better version for free...

On pirated versions of this game: Pirated versions will still be using Steam (just with modified .dlls). So Steam still gets on those computers. But I guess you can still consider it as "better" since you'll skip most of the Steam stuff (but not all of it).

By the way, Steam's UI was overhauled (note I didn't say "upgraded") for 2010 about 2 weeks ago.
 
Moderator Action: This thread contains multiple posts that either trigger the autocensor or use selfcensoring to evade it. Please refrain from foul language - if you find you have triggered the autocensor or feel the need to selfcensor, please rephrase.

Also, please keep the discussion civil - discuss other users' posts not other users' themselves
 
Erm, sorry, by "Citation" I meant an example of something unreasonable Valve has done to piss off the entire community, not an example of some idiot nerd raging because he cheated and got banned for it.

I'm pretty sure everyone has done something to make someone annoyed at some point in history. That's not really relevant.

Well next time be more clear what you are asking for. I gave you an example of someone who'd been pissed off by Valve and my original statement was "People have been pissed off by Valve in the past so the argument that Valve will never do anything if it risks pissing people off is false."

I use a statement which uses the "existential quantifier". ie. There exist people who have been annoyed by Valve. I've noticed you often use the universal quantifier when it's not appropriate. e.g. "All modern games use online activation." This is obviously false so it is easy for people to disagree.

Consider a scenario. Most people consider reloading to be cheating in civ, right? Will VAC be banning people for reloading? If it can't, do you think people should be found out and banned for reloading? Obviously this would require a form of mp where reloading is possible (e.g. current form of PBEM games), and if this is impossible with the next installment of civ (I suspect many PBEM players will not appreciate having to be online to play their PBEM turns so Valve can watch for whether they're cheating) then it will not be an issue. But for now, it's a hypothetical and I'd be interested in hearing a comforting answer.
 
On pirated versions of this game: Pirated versions will still be using Steam (just with modified .dlls). So Steam still gets on those computers. But I guess you can still consider it as "better" since you'll skip most of the Steam stuff (but not all of it).

By the way, Steam's UI was overhauled (note I didn't say "upgraded") for 2010 about 2 weeks ago.
No, Steam doesn't get on those computers. There are many custom installs which simply ignore Steam. So...Why in god's name are we forced to use Steam?
 
I had written off Civ with #4, but some of the talked about changes in #5 at least got me thinking that maybe #5 might be worth taking a look at - if there was a demo to try it out first.

But this drm/steam required and dlc crud went and killed my interest again. Money grubs to the end, I guess...
 
Just a practical question:
I understand you can buy CIV 5 in the box in a shop, but that is missing certain parts, compared by the steam-version.
Can I buy the shop-version, install Steam, just for the additions and uninstall Steam afterwards?

My problem with Steam is that it wants me to switch off my Avira firewall in order to play. That is confirmed by a helpdesk-mail from Steam themselves.
For me switching off the firewall is not an option so I decided to remove Steam from my computer. Steam was installed by Football manager 2010, which also works without Steam.
 
Just a practical question:
Can I buy the shop-version, install Steam, just for the additions and uninstall Steam afterwards?

The answer is no. With the official version of the game, you will be forced to have the Steam software running (either in offline or online mode) whenever you want to play ciV.
 
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