PBEM - Results thread

Hmm who cares how you set up the game in the first place?

I thought we had covered this.

As long as both players decide what they wanna play, who cares what they play.

Next question?

Melifluous
 
Ok - I'll set a game up with a great start position for you - on a tiny island that you cant see for a couple of turns. My start position will look terrible but be great 3 squares away.

We need a system of third party map checkers.

Dont just knee jerk all the time. Think a little first, Meli.
 
OK let me elaborate on my previous post.

I believe we should leave all details of the setting up of the games to the players involved. This would also include the fairness of the starting position.

If after a little while into the game you decide that it isnt a good start then surely, between the two of you, you could decide to restart.

Maybe third party inspection would be of help in such a case but this would imply staff. Another "interesting" issue to be debated :rolleyes:

Melifluous
 
Its more of an issue than the mechanics of scoring which - lets face it - are not that important.

So - at what stage can we restart? A little while. Mm. Thats helpful.

What if I dont want to restart and you do.

The fairness of the starting position is not normally apparent to the players until some way into the game. Access to iron, horses etc can change the whole course of a game. Surely we can do better than just trust to randomness.
 
Originally posted by col
The fairness of the starting position is not normally apparent to the players until some way into the game. Access to iron, horses etc can change the whole course of a game. Surely we can do better than just trust to randomness.
I really am amazed about the fact that you are discussing this matter right now, as you both are in lots of PBEM games (for months now)!

Why making trouble now? In the other games you had no problem with "just starting" a PBEM game.

Lets just stick to the rule that people who play their games decide themselfs if they need a restart or not. We are all adults here. This would make our lives lots easier.

BTW I see a restart happen only when one of the human player has a ****ty start or when - in an 1vs1 game - the two humans let a 3rd party create a map for them where both players are on the same pangea.
 
Originally posted by ERIKK
I really am amazed about the fact that you are discussing this matter right now, as you both are in lots of PBEM games (for months now)!

Its cos he got beat in his first one :p

Cheap shot, but it felt good... :p

Melifluous
 
Maybe the fact that we have both played a lot of pbems gives us a little experience to call on.

I've been in a restarted pbem
I'm in several pbems I have no chance of winning cos of start position.

Why is discussing these things 'causing trouble' ????
 
ERIKK: scoring will ALWAYS spark ambitions. These, in turn may spark cheating..... remember the Russian guy in the GOTMs :(
 
Well there are so many ways to cheat in pbem its hardly worth worrying about.
 
:sad:

What is this? I thought we were all friends here that liked to play. :confused: :cry:

Mel, your posting style is abrasive and people misunderstand your intentions. If you don't want this to happen you will have to stop using the :p and :rolleyes: smileys, and be less sarcastic, especially with people who don't have english as a first language. If you don't care how people perceive you then carry on. I offer this advice as one who has often pissed off others in cfc, not as a 'better-than-thou' attitiude.

Col, we were discussing a ladder-style system here, so why not start a new thread titled 'When should you restart?'. Personally, I like the randomness in civ. I don't want to know where resources are, it totally changes the tech research order. If a start position looks really bad then it seems ok to restart, most people here agree. Whether or not you choose a set rule like the one I suggested yesterday '< 6 tiles with 2+ food (includes irrigatable plains)', or you choose an impartial 3rd party is neither here nor there in the scheme of things. As for the resource issue, it will even out over time, things will come back to you. To be totally honest I am happy to never restart. Soem games you will be destined to lose, others you will be destined to win. Such is life, we play enough games to resign when we know we are losing and not have it ruin us...

Can we please think of the clear seperation of two issues here. The first is the issue of restarting, which will always be contentious. The second is that of a scoring system that will be flexible and fair, which is IMO no less valid than the issue of whether or not you should restart.

And a final request. Lets all think about each other a little. I am sick of misunderstandings and people getting pissed off with each other. It upsets me a lot, this is not why I come to cfc... :sad:
 
Originally posted by col
Why is discussing these things 'causing trouble' ????
Because if you dont let the players themselfs decide if they need a restart, you (as the ladder administrator) will have to come up with the decision causes more and more discussion (over at here for example).


Look, even if you dont have a good starting location AND you play with multiple players much other factors will decide the outcome of the game!

And after all, you are aleady present in much games. Do you say now that you would have liked them all to be restarted?

But ok, ok, ok (sounds like Joe Pesci in Leathal Weapon II and III)

You can simply generalise that if someone starts...
- in the mountains
- in the jungle
- in the desert
- in the artic
... he or she is f*cked and you need a restart. That is pure logica. ProPains start in 2B calls for a restart in turn 1 normally... But it is tough in a 6 player game to start screaming for a restart. You just play and hope for better surroundings.

But after all this discussion now:
- if the game is for the ladder all players deserve not a start as descibed above.

Players in this game can call upon the Ladder staff to let them decide if there should be a restart.

All content with this rule?
 
I've never asked for a restart. Even when you had a start that could take me out before my first unit was built, I'd have played it.

BUT I thought we were discussing all aspects of a ladder system.

I'm simply trying to make the thing fair. I dont like being called a trouble maker because I raise some issues that relate to the ladder.

I like randomness more than most - but if we are talking 1 to 1 games then maybe thats NOT the BEST way to go.

Trust me. Letting the players decide is fine until you get a dispute when you'll wish the matter had ben sorted out at the start.
 
Originally posted by anarres
Mel, your posting style is abrasive

Originally posted by anarres
you will have to stop

Now this IS offensive. I will not tolerate people (other than Moderators, bless their cotton socks) telling me what to do, if you have a 'suggestion' then I will listen to it.

I apologised to ProPain and am currently talking to Col on MSN and having a laugh, if you start coming the administrator here, (telling Col to start a new thread for example) then we might have to rethink our relationship...

Melifluous

PS. For the benefit of Non-English speaking people, people with no sense of humour, or those that dont know that me, Col, ERIKK and anarres are all good friends, ALL OF THE ABOVE WAS MEANT TO BE FUNNY...
 
Col, I agree with you that we need to define what the restart rules are before we start the ladder, but there are 2 options, either of which are satisfactory:

1) Have a rule:
'< 6 tiles with 2+ food (includes irrigatable plains)'

2) Have a 3rd party decide.

BTW, no-one here has commented on (1), even though this is the 3rd or 4th time I have suggested it. It would work, it is simple, and there is no possible dispute (as long as the rule is well thought out and adhered to). Anyway, either method will solve this issue, please say if you disagree, so we can resolve this.
 
Originally posted by col
I'm simply trying to make the thing fair. I dont like being called a trouble maker because I raise some issues that relate to the ladder.
Well, this is a forum. Everybody is allowed to raise issues. And anarres started about restarts AFAIK while I wouldn't even have come up with it if it wasn't mentioned. I believe in the reasonability of people at this forum. We have started lots of PBEMS so far and there never were problems.

Remember our restart game (4x2). Where you posted your starting location by accident and we were located right next to each other.

After seeing the WM it was clear that we absolutely not needed a restart. But nobody complained about it! This attitude I also sensed when we restarted 2B. Nobody complains, we just want to play civIII and are not gonna do difficult about good or bad starting locations.

In this spirit I wanna play my games.
 
Originally posted by anarres
1) Have a rule:
'< 6 tiles with 2+ food (includes irrigatable plains)'
2) Have a 3rd party decide.
I agree with both:

I support #2 first but #1 needs modification:

I say agree but with your 6 tiles much will fall in this rule. Lets say: if you dont have 2 tiles of 2 food (this includes plains which can be irrigated (but you have to have a river nearby)) you need a restart.

Disclaimer: I still think people should decide for themselfs as they did until now.
 
Mel,

I am sorry if I misunderstood you, but if you are going to get offended at my plea for more consideration of others then that's your choice.

You quoted very selectively from my post, including the line I offer this advice as one who has often pissed off others in cfc, not as a 'better-than-thou' attitiude. This part is very true, and you must admit you can piss people off too, without meaning to.

Also quoting you will have to stop without the preceding If you don't want this to happen you will have to stop is very misleading, I suggested soemthing to try and stop the misunderstanding that arose between you and ProPain.

**** it Mel, I like you, but if you don't want to talk to me normally then don't talk to me at all. You say that you won't be told what to do. I didn't tell you, I suggested something. I called it advice, that's a suggestion, not an order. Just so you know, I am being deadly serious. If you were only joking around you had me fooled...

Your call. :sad:
 
I had addresed (1) but it was in a post that looked like it was replying to meli.

My problem with it is that your start position is so much more than the 9 initial tiles. You may be on a tiny island surrounded by ocean. You may have only room for two or three cities. None of these things will be clear initially.

In all my 1 v 1 games now, I ask a third party to generate a map and check for obvious imbalance. This eliminates most of the flaws.
 
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