SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

da_Vinci · Apr 18, 2012

Grifftavian said:
^ Agree with Sleepless it's probably best to build the Hindu buildings and spread the Religions before running too many specialists.

Keep in mind that while we want Hinduism in all our cities, we need to spread Christianity & Buddhism to at least six of our cities in order to build the Temples required for Cathedrals of both religions in our first two Legendary Culture cities.

While I agree that having monasteries and libraries are nice multipliers for the later artist Rep science, I think we might want to get the science moving with artists for a short while even before that is all in place to get to Music ASAP.

So I am thinking run as many artists as it takes to get to Lit and Music in the fewest turns, even if some builds get delayed ... well except maybe builds in the cities making the Aesthetics wonders, which we also need to beeline if we really want them (there are AI out there we have not met ... )

Under OR we can spread religions without monastery, so I think early hindu buildings (for extra hammers) actually helps speed the missionaries out sooner in the other religions.

dV

adrianj · Apr 18, 2012

I'm not very enthused about S.Paya build. It gets us to Pacifism slightly sooner, sure, but other than that it's a drain. The GProphet :gp:

is irritating. The cost even with the gold resource is still ~225 :hammers:

. I would like to thing that instead of sinking 225 :hammers:

we put it to use to either a) improve our immediate science rate by assigning artists or scientists, or b) invest it in other useful things like infrastructure or important military/garrison builds.

Regarding the no cottage approach - it's all about leveraging our Philosophical trait and generating Great Artists. An artist specialist under representation still produces 4 :science:

, which isn't too bad. It's not the best for pure :science:

/

(like cottages/hamlets/villages/towns), but the side effect of many great artist :gp:

makes sense to me. dV, we've talked about this!

The list of builds: we should review it for urgency. I've assumed improving the garrison in Kyoto is urgent, hence these builds come first in Delhi, Bombay and Varanasi. Next priority is getting a settler out to the western island, which Vijay and Patal are working on. After these, we start compromising between Temple/Monastery/Missionary builds with Artist specialists.

The MM for Delhi should be quite straight forward - work all available cottages. I don't think we're in a huge rush to build Parthenon (only Tokugawa knows Aesthetics, though can't discount unmet civs) so the mines aren't so important. Even working Marble/Deer/Stone/city tile + 3x AP religious buildings the city gets 18 base :hammers:

/turn. That's 49/turn after multipiers of +175% for Parthenon build, ie, 9 turns or less.

I suggest we pick one city, with uncontaminated :gp:

, preferably with library + monastery, and assign Scientist specialists here. One Great Scientist about 20-25 turns from now would suit our situation for bulbing Education.

da_Vinci · Apr 18, 2012

adrianj said:
Regarding the no cottage approach - it's all about leveraging our Philosophical trait and generating Great Artists. An artist specialist under representation still produces 4, which isn't too bad. It's not the best for pure / (like cottages/hamlets/villages/towns), but the side effect of many great artist makes sense to me. dV, we've talked about this!

I get the reason for artists in most places. I am just trying to figure out where the commerce comes from (or direct merchant gold) to pay the bills in this system. And whether cottages are better than specialists in Kyoto due to academy, or not.

I am going to play to lit now.

dV

da_Vinci · Apr 19, 2012

Played to lit. Took 3 turns ... should have taken 2 but I forgot to put slider back to 100% sci after checking research times at 0% for one turn. So we have cash for one turn of 100% sci into Music, so it is a wash. We revolted to caste and OR.

I got lit down to 2 turns by running artists where it did not slow the pop growth time or current build time in the first turn, backed off the artists where it did not slow the lit time in the next turns.

Notable events: The OB with members came through.
Toku went Christian
S Paya got built elsewhere ... SOZ is already built somewhere else. We may need to get to music fast!

Music looks like a 10 to 12 turn run, depending on how many artists we devote.

The city for making GS seems to be Kyoto ... it has an academy and a pure gene pool (as far as I can see).

Cities are building as per plan, except I have hindu miss just started in Bombay (for Tokyo) before the spear and archer there. Can be removed if we want, no hammers in.

With OB, our warrior is scouting up in Hammu lands. I move the two axes in the center of our land back west, in the event Liz comes that way. I am building two roads that will make the trip from Delhi to the NW front three turns. The further out the scout gets, more central the reinforcements can be, to react in either direction.

Unhealth is starting to be an issue, so this is an opportune time to be running some specialists ... coming off the farm tiles.

Submission log:

Spoiler :

Autolog:

Spoiler :

adrianj · Apr 19, 2012

Shwedagon Paya built in a far away land - I guess that settles that!

Toku is now a Christian

Hopefully this degrades his relationship with Liz by so much that they cancel their open borders agreement. With that gone, Liz could find it difficult to send troops our way, if that is in fact her desire.

OB succeeded

Hinduism spread to Osaka and Kyoto - also excellent news

For only three turns dV, this is a great turnset

da_Vinci · Apr 19, 2012

The Hindu spread was via missionaries, but at least they didn't fail.

Goal: Fast cultural win

Opportunities: GA from music still in play we hope

Challenges: Could Tgawa, or an unmet beat us to Music? Economy is suffering. Minimal commerce on land, only one TR per city since no currency yet. Where will science come from? Clearly, not the slider. Kyoto perhaps with scientists in Academy

Per aj: Phases of the game remaining:
1) Tech to Music. Build Sistine Chapel. Still growing cities and building infrastructure.
2) Tech to Philosophy. Switch to Pacifism. Start assigning artists under Caste System. (and scientists in one city for Education). The artists are a significant source of
3) Tech to Liberalism, get there first and take Nationalism. Switch to Free Speech. Start completing Cathedrals.
4) Tech to Drama. Turn down science slider for culture slider. Maximise Culture.

dV Turnset goal: tech to music.

RESEARCH: Music ASAP

Where to get science? Specialists. Artists generally, scientitsts in Kyoto (academy)

CITY BUILDS: (see spoil for prior comments)

aj recent recs on city builds, updated post dV 3 turn run to Lit Green - done, ; Red = can't do ; Blue = Plan

Delhi: 1x spear for the garrison in Kyoto. Then get started on Parthenon. Keep working cottages/farms in preference to mines however. I think we work mines to get it in 5 turns, given that other Aesth wonders have been built by unknowns.

Bombay: Quick miss for Tokyo first, then Build 1x spear + 1x archer for Kyoto. Then get started on Status of Zeus.

Vijay: Build Settler for western island (started). Then continue with temple/monastery/library/missionaries.

Patal: Build a galley+archer to ferry/defend settler to western island. Then an archer for itself. Then the usual mix of hindu temples/monastery/missionaries with city walls inserted perhaps.

Varanasi: Archer x1 for Kyoto. Then usual mix of Hindu temple/monastery/missionaries/library.

Osaka: Granary. Consider giving up the Corn farm to Bombay and have the city work mines.

Tokyo: Assign artist specialist when out of revolt. Then... Christian missionary? Library? Courthouse? Spears or Archers?

Kyoto: Same story as Tokyo. Consider inserting City Walls. With Academy in Kyoto, run scientists there for faster research

FAST WORKER ACTION PLAN

In general, continue building Farms & Mines, maybe pre-chop a few Forests. we are not cottaging … except in Delhi

Given the Academy, science specs in Kyoto for the GS we want

Defense plan? How do we want to redistribute the army for defense?

CIVICS CHANGES & OTHER STUFF

Per aj: I think we switch to Caste System + Organised Religion immediately. Artists everywhere, except maybe scientists in Kyoto?

Diplomacy: Do we have plans to try to manipulate AI religions, OB with us and OB with others?

Espionage: Where do we want to direct the points now? I put them on Liz

REASONS TO PAUSE

Hammy or Liz or Hattie offer us a trade, or a trade becomes available that we could offer one of them. Oh, I did 't look at resource trades. No tech trades came avail.

We meet another ****gawa.

Anything out of the ordinary (like a large English stack of units showing up).

Any advice on how many artists to run where is welcome.

When and where will we want NE and HE?

dV

adrianj · Apr 19, 2012

Good job with the missionaries - I hadn't realised we had some walking about. Congratulations on them succeeding :goodjob:

The plan looks good to me.
I am happy with Delhi aiming to get Parthenon ASAP, given that SPaya is gone so we have competition.
We can't build statue of Zeus. Not enough monuments? Is it worth throwing the requisite number up? Or was it built elsewhere already?
Shopping lists for Varanasi, Vijay and Patal look to be almost at the infrastructure stage. Now might be a good time to switch these cities to max artist specialists.

Edit: is there room for a scout build somewhere to send toward Hammu?

Ronnie1 · Apr 19, 2012

adrianj said:
Shwedagon Paya built in a far away land - I guess that settles that!

Toku is now a Christian Hopefully this degrades his relationship with Liz by so much that they cancel their open borders agreement. With that gone, Liz could find it difficult to send troops our way, if that is in fact her desire.

OB succeeded

Hinduism spread to Osaka and Kyoto - also excellent news

For only three turns dV, this is a great turnset

I agree with this sentiment entirely!

da_Vinci · Apr 19, 2012

Zeus got built elsewhere.

Where exactly do we want to settle on the island?

Will we need aqueducts eventually, or will running specs remove the unhealthy concern?

dV

Sleepless · Apr 19, 2012

Good job so far da_Vinci especially with getting the missionaries to spread. I was a bit of a failure with that.

Hadn't noticed the SoZ had gone and round about 50BC ish so Delhi concentrating on the Parthenon seems a good idea. We still have some forests that could be chopped as well if workers near enough.

Tech we do have to aim for Music asap so scientists in Kyoto seems a good idea. Plus side as well Toku hasn't culturally reclaimed the tiles to the East so should be able to keep all its BFC and a very strong contendor for the National Epic. Might be an idea to move a unit East as well to explore a bit more and possibly a bit of advance warning.

Notice Ghengis is WHEEOH as well though could be Toku now with the different religion. Good news with the OB though and missionaries for Hammy might get us a friend and the possibility of some tech trading. If he hasn't spread bud around much might be easy to get him to change religion.

Island city. Until we have currency won't help with the trade routes but I still favour the sheep site due to the hills. Need to look at the map again though.

Epics as mentioned I favour Kyoto for National and would prefer a non legendary city for HE. Probably Palitpura so legendary cities can concentrate on becoming well legendary.

Grifftavian · Apr 19, 2012

Good job on the initial portion of your turn set, dV!

Attached is a screen shot with dot-maps on the western island showing my suggestions for settling the island. What does everyone else think about where to settle the island?

adrianj · Apr 19, 2012

I notice that the corn is a wet corn, so it's worth 6 :food:

,1

. The sheep will be what, 3 :food:

,2

?

Our end game for the satellite cities will mostly consist of trying to generate Great Artists. I am in favour of settling only 1 city on the island, and be sure to claim the corn (on the tile where the dotmaps overlap). Corn + lake + 3 farms could give an excess of 10 :food:

, or 5 specialists at size 10.

Such a city could also work all the hill tiles except the sheep, so its production wouldn't be too shabby if needed.

Only one city does reduce our revenue from overseas trade routes however, so I could be convinced otherwise. Is +1 :commerce:

per city enough to overcome the extra maintenance of +1 city? At a guess, I think not.

da_Vinci · Apr 19, 2012

Any thoughts on what resource trades for gold we might want to make? Should I be looking at sending hindu miss to OB neighbors?

dV

Ronnie1 · Apr 20, 2012

Hindu Missionaries to Hammy for sure!

ANY gold for resources helps us now!

adrianj · Apr 20, 2012

speaking of :gold:

for resource deals... can we revise our deer trade to Hammu for something better?

Missionaries to Hammu - sure, great. But low priority compared to assigning artists to generate :science:

. Well... assuming :science:

is our priority right now, given we are racing to be the first to Music.

Grifftavian · Apr 20, 2012

adrianj said:
I notice that the corn is a wet corn, so it's worth 6,1. The sheep will be what, 3,2,2?

Our end game for the satellite cities will mostly consist of trying to generate Great Artists. I am in favour of settling only 1 city on the island, and be sure to claim the corn (on the tile where the dotmaps overlap). Corn + lake + 3 farms could give an excess of 10 , or 5 specialists at size 10.

Such a city could also work all the hill tiles except the sheep, so its production wouldn't be too shabby if needed.

Only one city does reduce our revenue from overseas trade routes however, so I could be convinced otherwise. Is +1 per city enough to overcome the extra maintenance of +1 city? At a guess, I think not.

I believe a Sheep Pasture on a Grass Hill would yield 4 :food:

, 1

. But I like your idea of forgoing the Sheep and founding only one city on the island, with the city square 1NW of the inland lake. I think you may have underestimated its potential for running specialists. If we only worked the following food generating tiles...

1 riverside Corn Farm = 6 1 = +4
4 riverside Farms = 5 :Food: 1 = +3 each
2 lakeside Farms = 5 = +3 each
1 inland lake w/lighthouse = 3 2 = +1

that's +23 :food:

at Size 8, enough to run 11 specialists and still be growing at +1 :food:

/turn! At Size 11 we could run 10 specialists and work 3 Grass Hill Mines with stagnant growth.

Grifftavian · Apr 20, 2012

adrianj said:
speaking of for resource deals... can we revise our deer trade to Hammu for something better?

Missionaries to Hammu - sure, great. But low priority compared to assigning artists to generate . Well... assuming is our priority right now, given we are racing to be the first to Music.

It looks like we might be able to cancel both the Deer & Gold gifts to Hammy, and sell Deer to Hammy + sell Gold to Hattie.

Sleepless · Apr 20, 2012

1NW of the lake seems best if we only settle 1 city on the island. With OB we still get the foreign trade routes so 2 cities not essential. Well till the AI get merc anyway.

Would still prefer to use 1 city to spam missionaries to Hammie. With more cities with Hindu he might join in a war against Liz?

da_Vinci · Apr 20, 2012

Grifftavian said:
I believe a Sheep Pasture on a Grass Hill would yield 4 , 1 , 1 . But I like your idea of forgoing the Sheep and founding only one city on the island, with the city square 1NW of the inland lake. I think you may have underestimated its potential for running specialists. If we only worked the following food generating tiles...

1 riverside Corn Farm = 6 1 = +4

4 riverside Farms = 5 :Food: 1 = +3 each

2 lakeside Farms = 5 = +3 each

1 inland lake w/lighthouse = 3 2 = +1

that's +23 at Size 8, enough to run 11 specialists and still be growing at +1 /turn! At Size 11 we could run 10 specialists and work 3 Grass Hill Mines with stagnant growth.

Oooh, I want to know what kind of non-resource grass farms you are running to get 5 food out of them ... :mischief:

That and how you run 11 specialists at size 8 ... :eek:

I think your six farms are only 1 food net, so your 23 is 12 food too many. Net looks like 11 for five specialists. Unhealth may enter in somewhere too ...

Looks like we have agreement on on city on the island, and where. I'll see if I can spit out a few miss for Hammy, but not at the expense of completing Hindu infrastructure or a turn on the music run. Delhi gets Parth in 5 IIRC, so if artists there don't change the music time, I could make miss there.

How many cities of Hammy do we want to spread to? Have to keep control of the AP ...

Unless someone else has any issues, I think I am ready to play to music tonight. After which I'll hand off to C63.

dV

adrianj · Apr 20, 2012

Griff- I think your numbers are off. You've shown we can get +13 :food:

in that potential city, not 23. People gotta eat! The max specialists would be 6, but need to be size 13 to feed them.

Don't forget that specialists are population too. Size 8 running 11 specialists is certainly a nonsense.

Edit: xpost with dv

SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Deity

Emperor

Emperor

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Deity

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