Breeding like rabbits?! Slavic populations in Europe between 500 CE and 1000 CE

Libia's current growth rate is 0,5%.

Today we have advanced medicine, and almost all children are surviving to adulthood. In Early Medieval times, around 50% of all born alive people were dying before 18 years old (vast majority of them as infants or small children), and those who survived to 18 years, lived on average 35 - 45 years.

World population has reached 1,000,000,000 during the 1820s CE and 500,000,000 perhaps during the 1500s CE (according to estimations).

Nowaydas, in 2013, we have over 7,000,000,000 people. Demographic boom is a very recent thing, of late 19th and 20th centuries.

Given the vast amounts of land the Slavs could expand towards

Slavs expanded very rapidly over very vast areas, which indicates they were already numerous before expansion.

After all, all sources from the era mention Slavs (both civilians and warriors) coming in great numbers. This (the fact that they were numerous already before expansion - perhaps at least +/- 500,000 people) in turn means, that they had to inhabit large areas already before expansion, because they could not have a high population density (it is estimated that for slash-and-burn farmers maximum population density possible to feed is on average 1 person per km2, perhaps with other sources of food such as hunting, fishing and gathering it could be up to 1,5 per km2 or in some extremely fertile areas even 2 per km2). Take also into account that not entire population migrated (and I estimate entire population to be at least +/- 500,000 already in ca. years 300 CE - 400 CE).

Slavs switched from slash-and-burn to two-field crop rotation in the 7th century CE, already after expansion.

BTW - very "fierce" discussion here: http://historum.com/european-histor...-linguistics-anthropology-history-etc-61.html
 
Regarding the joint Slavic-Avar military campaigns:

Slavic warriors were the bulk of Slavic-Avar armies and they took the main brunt of combats in each battle. The Avars were always in reserve. According to Fredegar of Burgundy (he uses the names Huns and Avars as synonyms, in discussed time period of course he is writing about the Avars):

Excerpt from Fredegar's account (my translation to English):

"(...) each time when the Huns invaded some people, they were waiting with their entire army in front of the camp, while the Vinidi were fighting. If the Vinidi were achieving victory, then the Huns were also moving in, to pillage and capture war booty; while in case if the Vinidi were being defeated, then they [the Vinidi] were attacking again, but this time supported by forces of the Huns. (...)"

In other words - the tactic was as follows. At first, Slavic warriors were attacking alone. If they won the battle, OK. If they were repulsed, they were regrouping and attacking again. But the 2nd attack was supported by the Avars. In any case - Avar warriors always played only a support role for the Slavs, according to description by Fredegar. Some people interpret his account in the way, that the Avars were using Slavs as "cannon fodder" - but this is clearly a wrong interpretation, because cannon fodder by definition are troops who die without achieving much, while Fredegar's account clearly indicates, that Slavic warriors were playing a crucial role in achieving victory in each battle where Slavic-Avar forces fought together. Of course naturally Slavs were also suffering the main portion of casualties in the process, since they were taking the brunt of combats.

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BTW:

Fredegar's account is probably exaggerating the level to which the Avars managed to subjugate the Slavs. There are even theories, that the Avars were never clearly dominant, but rather it was an alliance between two independent peoples. I would claim that some Slavic tribes indeed recognized some sort of Avar power, but rather in the form of being vassals / paying tribute, not totally subjugated as Fredegar seems to suggest.

The ease with which later Slavs defeated the Avars in a "civil war" (which started already before Samo's arrival), indicates this as well.

But of course by the time of Slavic "rebellion", the Avars were already weakened by previous unsuccessful invasions of the Frankish realm.
 
beorna said:
between Elbe and Oder river shall have lived around 800 CE not much more than 50,000 people. At the end of the 10th century it were already 250,000 and in 1150 already 400,000 (Deutsche Geschichte, Bd. I, S. 424).

Domen said:
beorna said:
between Elbe and Oder river shall have lived around 800 CE not much more than 50,000 people.

This is in my opinion and according to all reason, a considerably underestimated claim.

One more thing concerning these - totally wrong (underestimated) regarding year 800 CE in my opinion - estimations:

Between years 789 and 1157 (ca. 370 years), according to prof. Schuenemann of the University of Kiel, there were at least 170 Frankish, German and Saxon invasions of Slavic territories. Of those 170, according to the same historian, 20 ended in a total disaster for the attackers, less than 60 succeeded partially or fully and over 90 did not achieve any considerable success, but also did not end in a total defeat.

Anyway, this shows that there was at least one invasion each 2 years. Each of invasions - even not very successful ones and totally failed ones - surely resulted in some destructions inflicted upon Slavic lands, some casualties, and in capturing some prisoners from pillaged territories.

Anthropological research confirms, that Slavs from territory of East Germany (DDR) on average lived shorter than all other Slavs. This indicates that their natural growth rate was also smaller (perhaps the sole fact that they lived shorter, can be connected with those military conflicts).

Yet the book you quoted, claims that during that period, population of Polabian and Sorbian-Lusatian Slavs increased 8 times, despite nearly constant wars ravaging their lands - one invasion each 2 years. And when you add to this also Slavic invasions and counterattacks of Frankish / German / Saxon territories (in which attacking Slavic warriors were also being killed), then perhaps there was not a single year without combats.

In other words - I do not believe in such a rapid population growth, considering how turbulent was that area during that period.

And wars against Franks, Saxons and Germans were not the only wars fought by those Slavic tribes. They were also fighting some wars against each other during that period, as well as against even more of external enemies (including Poles, Danes, maybe Hungarians, etc.).
 
Zofia Kurnatowska in her book "Słowiańszczyzna południowa" ("Southern Slavdom") on page 55 writes that great role in Slavic colonization of the Balkans was played by assimilation of non-Slavs (both local inhabitants and prisoners of war) and turning them into Slavic speakers. She also quotes Miracula S. Demetrii, L. II, V, 195 (which says about assimilation of Bulgars, Avars and other tribes into Slavic ethnos, including intermarrying between Slavic people and Bulgars, Avars and other tribes, as the result of which: "a huge and very numerous nation emerged") to support this claim:



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BTW - there are claims that early Slavic people were "less civilized" than tribes which they conquered, colonized or assimilated.

However, primary sources such as Miracula S. Demetrii, seem to suggest that it was not really the case.

For example L. II, IV, 190, 102 of Miracula S. Demetrii writes that Slavic people had many skilled artisans - carpenters, joiners and smiths.

L. II, IV, 190, 101 - 102 says about a Slavic foreman and his artisans - who were ordered to construct a sophisticated siege tower.

The same source says about specialization among Slavic smiths. For example, some of them specialized in producing arrowheads.

Kurnatowska also writes, that there are proofs for existence of goldsmiths and other metal-workers in early Slavic settlements. She notices that apart from ethnic Slavic artisans there could be artisans recruited from prisoners of war captured by Slavs during their expansion.

While Slavic carpenters, joiners, smiths and producers of arrows were skilled, it seems that there were no professional potters in Slavic societies.

Slavic pottery was produced by each family on its own, rather than by artisans specialized in producing pottery (Kurnatowska, page 69).

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Pangur Ban said:
TW, it is important to stress for those who don't realise how great 'Slavic expansion' was. There were Slavic tribes in the Peloponnese in the 10th century, i.e. near places like Sparta and Argos, and in the same era Slavic had been brought to the vicinity of Hamburg! Were it not for the Franks preserving Roman big-state protection in the era, Slavic may I might suggest have become the language of places like Paris and Cologne not long after.

Map showing Slavic tribes in the Peloponnese from Kurnatowska's book:



Among the southernmost ones were Milingowie (Μιληγγοί; Milengoi) and Jeziercy (Ἐζερῖται; Ezerītai):

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milingowie

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeziercy

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Regarding Slavic houses:

According to Kurnatowska early Slavic houses (6th - 7th centuries and earlier) were 0,3 m - over 1 m deep (on average 0,5 m deep) earth-sheltered. Area of Slavic houses varied - usually between 5-6 and 14-15 square meters, with some houses being 25 square meters large. They had hard earthen floors, sometimes hammered out with clay. Walls of Slavic houses were built of wood with use of one of 2 alternative techniques:

1) log cabin technique (more widespread):

Log cabin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log_cabin

2) timbering kept up with wooden poles.

Early Slavic houses had wooden pitched roofs, often propped up with wooden poles. Each house had a stove made of stones located in one corner (houses had shape similar to square). Stoves had area of between 0,5 to over 2 square meters. In most regions Slavic stoves were made of stones. In some regions also clay stoves were in use - sometimes located in a hollow in a wall (probably to spare some space).

Here are two examples (plans) of such houses:



Example of reconstruction (with a stone stove):



Other examples:







http://podkarpaccy.pl/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/4.jpg

Spoiler :

http://mediadeling.com/addons/albums/images/812a3bb7a7.jpg

Spoiler :

Kurnatowska writes that this kind of houses was the most widespread one in all Slavic lands, not only among Southern Slavs.

Only in a few places - mostly in a few parts of Bosnia - smaller and more primitive earth dug huts without stoves inside were found.

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Regarding early Slavic farming techniques, Kurnatowska writes:

"(...) In more recent literature on the subject more and more clearly the old opinion about the widespread use or even exclusive use of slash-and-burn agriculture among first Slavs is being questioned, while a more complex picture of their articulture is presented. Early Slavic agriculture simultaneously knew and used various directions of arable farming, starting from intensive manual cultivation of infield allotments, through fallow system of farming, to peripheral slash-and-burn system. Realizing the many-sidedness of early Slavic agriculture allows to understand its considerable elasticity and its ability to adapt to changing conditions, (...)"

Garden plants - especially leguminous plants - had a very important place in Slavic agriculture, which is confirmed by primary sources.

Kurnatowska writes what is the origin of the opinion, that Slavs knew only slash-and-burn agriculture:

"(...) Slavs, while colonizing the Balkan Peninsula as well as some parts of Eastern Alpine countries, initially settled mainly in abandoned territories, which had not been in agricultural use already for long time and were often overgrown by forests. Due to this fact activity of settlers had to be directed first of all towards recultivation of those areas with use of traditional method of burning forests. In this sense we can talk about intensification of slash-and-burn agriculture in initial period of Slavic colonization of the Balkans. Excerpts from Nomos georgikos (Farmer's law) cited to support this theory, concern the use of fire in order to cleanse pieces of land for agriculture. About this kind of activity of Slavic settlers we are informed also by document of Bavarian duke Tassilon from year 777 written for monastery in Kremsmunster: "We grant also this land, which had been brought to condition suitable for cultivation by these Slavs without our permission, below the place which is called Las, near Todicha and Sirnik" (...)"

All this confirms what Pangur Ban wrote before - that Slavic agriculture was not backward and that they were considered as specialist farmers.

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Coming back to artisans:

Slavic carpenters and boatbuilders constructed the fleets which attacked Constantinople in 624 AD and Thessaloniki in 614-616 / 620 AD.

Slavic fleet also blockaded the harbour of Thessaloniki in years 674-677.
 
By comparison reconstructions of Anglo-Saxon and Saxon houses:









I really cannot see any "technological inferiority" of Slavic houses - quite the contrary, actually...

But maybe the impression of "superiority" of Slavic houses is created by so "tidy" reconstructions, while these ones are messy.

Anyway - clearly Slavic houses were not any worse than Anglo-Saxon houses. Byzantine accounts written by people who saw the splendor of Constantinople described Slavic houses as "huts" - but in reality they were at least up to average European standard of the time, if not better.
 
Domen said:
Example of reconstruction (with a stone stove):


And here a video showing Early Medieval Slavic architecture (both from this very early period as the one above, and later):

At 0:25 of the video we can see the same early type of house from 5th - 6th centuries as the one above:

At 1:30 of the video we can see an urban type of house from the city of Kiev from 10th - 11th centuries:


Link to video.
 
It would be ironic if they were Hebrews from 600 BCE.
 
When it comes to Slavic look:

Slavic hair and skin are described by early sources as either blond or ruddy (with "ruddy" referring to skin colour of suntanned Slavs):

"The earliest Arabic-Slavic contacts can probably be traced all the way to the 500's, and most likely occured on or near the territory of the East Roman (Byzantine) Empire. The earliest Arabic sources describe the Slavs as a people with pale skin, that turns "red" while under the sun, and blond hair. The Arabs even referred to a certain kind of a white coloured bean as Saqalibiya (Slavic), as we learn from the Kitab al-Filaha, a treatise on agriculture written by Ibn al-'Avvam at the end of the 12th century; the bean's colour apparently reminded them of the colour of the Slavs' hair. The first confirmed instance of the Slavs meeting the Arabs is mentioned by the Byzantine chronicler Teofanes (Teophanes), who wrote in the early 9th century; according to him in 664 a group of 5 000 Slavic (Sklavinoi) mercenaries in the Byzantine service joined the victorious army of the Omayyad (Umayyad) Caliph Mu'avyi I (reigned 661-680) who was returning from a campaign in Asia Minor. The caliph settled these Slavs in an area near the city of Apamea in northern Syria."
Now it becomes obvious why Procopius described not only hair colour but also skin colour of Slavs as "ruddy" - he simply described suntanned Slavs (who normally had: "pale skin, that turns red while under the sun" - according to Arab sources):

Procopius of Caesarea (500 - 565 AD):

Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are all slightly ruddy in color.
And Abraham ben Jacob (912 - 966) wrote that Slavs were slender and with light blonde hair.

When it comes to sun - it has the opposite effect upon hair than upon skin.

While skin turns darker or ruddy under the sun, hair colour becomes lighter while under the sun. So probably the most common hair colour among Slavic people was brown (which turns "blonde" under the sun), followed by blonde (which turns "white" under the sun).
 
Maybe my map and my chart I've recently made can help to bring up new answers:

Map of Slavic languages in Europe in % of native speakers (including immigrants) by country:



And Y-DNA haplogroups in Slavic countries (green) and in countries with large Slavic-speaking minorities (bright green):

Plus some other countries / ethnic groups which share the same predominant haplogroup for comparison:




As you can see from this data above, the two most typical for Slavic people major Y-DNA haplogroups are R1a and I2.

Also Y-DNA haplogroup E is very frequent among Southern Slavs.

I2 - as can be seen above - is most frequent among Southern Slavs, but also quite frequent among other Slavs.

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Let's compare these Slavic Y-DNA haplogroups posted above to Y-DNA haplogroups of western and northern neighbours of Slavic countries:



Division of Germany for west / south / north and east which applies to data posted above, is along these red lines:



This means that "North Germany" as defined here, includes also Lower Saxony, most of which was never inhabited by Slavic people.

Taking this into consideration, I am sure that the highest % of "Slavic haplogroups" is not in East Germany, but in North-East Germany.

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Regarding people with R1a Y-DNA haplogroup in Germany - not all of it has to be of Slavic origin:

According to this website below, a high frequency of this Y-DNA haplogroup was among Old Prussians and Yotvingians:

http://prusowie.pl/genealogia/projekt_genetyczny_prusow_jacwiegow.php

Genetic Project of Old Prussians and Yotvingians said:
Results
In the project of researching Y-DNA of inhabitants of old Prussia and Yotvingia, so far four haplogroups appeared:

I2a2 - around 10% of results
N1c1 - around 40% of results
R1a - around 40% of results
R1b - around 10% of results

But if this research is reliable regarding N (N1c1) haplogroup, then a bit surprising is very low % of this haplogroup in modern Germany.

It suggests that overall Prussian contribution to modern German Y-DNA haplogroups was perhaps still much smaller than Slavic.
 
This video below (very simplified and schematic, but largely correct) places the original Slavic homeland in Ukraine.

It was probably in the forest-steppe zone (deciduous forest and wooded steppe) of Central, Northern, Western and North-Eastern Ukraine.

Slavic cradle indeed most probably had to be located somewhere near the previous All-Indo-European cradle, since Slavic language was the most "archaic" of all IE languages - i.e. it was most similar to the original PIE out of all IE languages. The hypothesis regarding Slavic cradle in Ukraine corresponds well with the Kurgan Hypothesis of prof. Marija Gimbutas according to which the cradle of Indo-Europeans was also partially in Ukraine. Slavic people emerged from those Indo-Europeans who stayed for the longest time near the original IE homeland, until they finally also expanded as the last major wave of IE speakers:


Link to video.

Please note that most of modern Belarus was previously inhabited by Baltic tribes, later they became assimilated by expanding Slavic tribes.

Kurgan Hypothesis of prof. Marija Gimbutas (according to this hypothesis the original PIE homeland included parts of modern Ukraine and Russia):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marija_Gimbutas

Indo-European expansion according to the Kurgan Hypothesis:



The reason why IE speakers were so successful in promoting* their language was because they domesticated horses and invented wagons.

*Often promoting and expanding with use of military force, of course.
 
Map looks weird, the region marked as Ukraine includes mostly Southern Russia, and only a few Eastern regions of contemporary Ukraine.
 
more legitimate sources like the university of Skopje in Protoslavia

Balkan origin of Slavic language is actually the least probable theory out of all 3 theories (Eastern European, Central European origin, and Balkan origin). :) Even theory about CE origin is more probable (in Poland we call it "Autochthonic theory" as we look at history from our own little place, so "Autochthons" are those who lived in Poland - but for example theory about EE origin of Slavic language is "Autochthonic" as well, from Ukrainian and Russian perspective).

BTW - Southern Slavs are genetically closer to Non-Slavic Balkanians than to other (Western and Eastern) Slavic people.

The prevalent haplogroup in the Balkans - no matter Slavic or non-Slavic countries - is the typically Old European I2, not the typically Indo-European R1a.

Balkanians also have significant admixtures of haplogroup E and haplogroup J2 - origins of which aren't explained in that simplified video I posted above.

Map looks weird, the region marked as Ukraine includes mostly Southern Russia, and only a few Eastern regions of contemporary Ukraine.

Maybe the map is not accurate.

But according to Marija Gimbutas it was something like at least half of modern Ukraine, as well as large parts of modern Southern Russia.
 
note that most of modern Belarus was previously inhabited by Baltic tribes, later they became assimilated by expanding Slavic tribes.

Here a map made by some Lithuanian, which shows the probable original extent of Baltic languages:

I have seen some sources which claim that it extended even further south, as far as the Pripyat Marshes of Polesia:

 
very interesting topic, is it true that the Slavs comprised a large portion of the Gladiators who fought in the Roman Arenas?
To me, we do not know everything about that large and divided (often fought each other relentlessly) tribe.
They were and are brave warriors, Balkan Slavs, taken away as children by the Turks, dominated the ranks of the Ottoman Janissaries.
They also fought (alongside the Vikings) in the Byzantine armies, specifically in the Varangian Guard unit, which fought to last man standing.
 
BTW - Southern Slavs are genetically closer to Non-Slavic Balkanians than to other (Western and Eastern) Slavic people.

The prevalent haplogroup in the Balkans - no matter Slavic or non-Slavic countries - is the typically Old European I2, not the typically Indo-European R1a.

Balkanians also have significant admixtures of haplogroup E and haplogroup J2 - origins of which aren't explained in that simplified video I posted above.

I can't be bothered to read the whole thread and this is kind of an old post but this is just wrong. I know very little of genetics but what I know is that paternal haplogroups don't really tell anything about genetic differences or similarities. You can't say that some two people sharing the same paternal haplogroup are genetically close. No no no. My paternal haplogroup is most likely (70 to 80 % change) haplogroup N. There are plenty of people in Siberia who have the same haplogroup as me. What it means is that at some point in history we shared a common ancestor, nothing else.

Spoiler :


I learned about haplogroups by reading Stormfront. :goodjob: It seems that haplogroups are some of the most misunderstood genetics that people use for whatever purposes. On Stormfront the racist people argue on who is "pure" and who is not, whetner one is "white" or not and they sometimes rely on haplogroups for their racist nonsense. Us Finns many don't consider whites because of our haplogroups that we share with clearly Asian looking people in Asia. In the 19th century we were considered of the Mongolid race or whatever because of our language. I see the haplogroups and misunderstanding of them as another tool in pseudo-scientific racism like pseudo-scientific linguistics were in the 19th century. Just saying. Be wary with these, there's a lot of utter bollocks about haplogroups on the net.
 
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